Strange Outcome to CFI-Initial

AeroT

AeroT

Well-Known Member
So yesterday I busted my CFI-Initial Airplane Single Engine ride on the flight portion. I'm not here to make excuses or say I was right but I had a really odd situation happen during my checkride with the FAA. I just want to know your thoughts on this situation and if you feel the examiner was justified in my failure.

We took off out of our local airport and headed south. Along the way we did straight and level, power off stall, unusual attitudes, elevator trim stall, taught a steep turn and let the examiner fly it, then turned around and started coming back to the airport. About 15 miles out in farmland country the examiner asked me to teach her a simulated engine failure to a landing. So I looked around chose a field that looked nice and started my spiral down to it. While I was doing this I was talking through everything and troubleshooting. I then "secured the airplane" simulated and instead of recovering at 500FT I recovered at 1000FT AGL, because earlier in the day we had talked about what I would feel safe recovering at with the examiner on the checkride.

I recover and go around and start climbing and the examiner starts ripping me a new one telling me how I just busted a regulation and that the people who lived next to this field were probably going to call in to the FSDO tomorrow and complain about a small plane coming to close to their house. The examiner then states that I just failed the checkride and that I use really bad judgement. There was a small neighborhood next to this field of 10-15 houses MAX with no other neighborhoods within a few miles other then random farm houses. When I spiraled down I stayed away from the houses stayed and directly over my field. The examiner said my field choice was excellent and it would have made for a great emergency landing spot, however I was doing it in a populated area. I was dumbfounded by this as I've been practicing these procedures all my pilot career with my instructors etc... and we have done them in the same type of areas. Farmland, few houses, and no big buildings or towers nearby etc...

The examiner asks if I want to continue and I said I guess so since I'm already here and, the examiner goes lets do rectangular course. At this point I'm still trying to figure out what I did wrong and I was freaking out about choosing a place to do rectangular course at 600-1000 AGL because there were farm houses etc... on every corner of the roads I was going to use for my course. I then go well I don't think I can do this maneuver because you told me I just busted a regulation on the last maneuver and I don't want to shoot myself in the foot. The examiner then proceeds to ask me if I know the difference between a populated and unpopulated area. I state that I do and that a populated area usually has quite a few houses around and isn't usually out in farmland. I said that if I had done my emergency landing over a busy suburb or city that would have been a bad idea but I saw nothing wrong with my selection of an unpopulated area. The examiner then said just do the maneuver and so we continued on with the checkride.

We come back, switch airplanes for the complex portion to do my landings. The examiner had the series of landings planned out and said we were going to do 1. soft field takeoff followed by a short field landing 2. short field takeoff followed by a soft field landing 3. a normal takeoff with a power off 180 accuracy landing. The examiner stated during this whole checkride that there would be no intentional surprises and that if an engine failed or anything happened it would be a real emergency and not a simulation. We brief before our second series of takeoffs and landings and I hear the same briefing. The examiner stated we would be doing a soft field landing on this pattern and then we'd finish with the power off 180s. I'm in the pattern putting full flaps in and gear down and the examiner pulls the power abeam the numbers. I was kind of shocked because I didn't know if it was a real emergency or not since I was told to not expect any surprises and in my mind I was getting ready for a soft field.

I made it back to the airport and the examiner said nice job and I was really confused at this point as to what just happened. I understand the examiner has authority to do whatever they want on a checkride, but when I'm told that if we ever lost engine power it would be a real emergency and not a simulation etc... it's really contradicting.


So I have to go out and do a simulated emergency landing and then I'll get my CFI ticket. I'm a pretty honest person and I feel like if I did something wrong and used poor judgement I would agree and say yeah you know that was pretty stupid of me. So there is my vent for my checkride that was disapproved. I'm not saying I'm right about this situation but I do feel like I was given an unfair checkride. At this point I'm just treating it like a bad call in a sports game. Theres not much I can really do but it still was pretty shocking to me.
 
Wait...you recovered at 1000 AGL? Seems to me that you recovered at the proper altitude if it was indeed a "congested area" which does indeed sound debatable. I'd call FSDO and see if you can be re-tested by an inspector. IIRC, a dispute can be appealed to FSDO and have a re-test conducted by an inspector. That might just be 141 stage checks though.
 
I'm confused also. If you were 1000 FT AGL when you aborted the simulated engine faliure, then you were above the mins for even a populated areas. Correct me if I'm wrong but last I checked it was 1000 ft above a populated area. So 1000 ft anywhere would be fine.
 
I'm not sure what I want to do about the situation either. I might just re-test the area I missed and then in a few months call the FSDO and explain what happened. I don't want to have the FSDO have me on their blacklist. I just think I got a bad apple inspector and should not have gotten a failure.
 
I busted my initial CFI under similar circumstances - it is what it is. They may tell you "no surprises," but that isn't true - the examiner will intentionally add distractions, and intentionally confuse you. And they can't pass everyone, so even if you are doing well, they may need to find a reason to bust you... I don't think it is always fair, but I also busted mine for exactly the same reason you did.

Examiner said "my airplane," performed a maneuver, and busted me for him being too low and not taking the controls back soon enough from him. My fault? Yes, but it did seem unfair as it wasn't one we briefed.

For what it is worth, most of the really good CFIs I know busted their initial CFI, and not one of them has said they felt like they deserved to.
 
Trev0079 said:
I'm not sure what I want to do about the situation either. I might just re-test the area I missed and then in a few months call the FSDO and explain what happened. I don't want to have the FSDO have me on their blacklist. I just think I got a bad apple inspector and should not have gotten a failure.
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Just do the retest and get on with your life.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
Just do the retest and get on with your life.
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Ditto. Even if you are 100% in the right, you won't win and fighting it won't help you at all. Remember, these are YOUR checkrides and YOU are the PIC. It is all fine and good for the DPE to give you a briefing, however when they are done, you give them YOUR briefing and be very clear that anytime you feel the safety of the aircraft or any FAR is going to be violated you WILL take control. Don't be afraid to be aggressive just as you would be if a student was trying to kill/violate you.

Good luck with the retest, I'm sure you will do fine.
 
yup, just do it and move on...

...I did mine with the infamous Dupage FSDO in Chicago, at the time I took it the previous 14 cfi applicants had all failed their first initial check that year (they average a 92% fail rate for cfi's their first time at that location)

I failed 5.5 hours into my oral b/c I explained a turn around a point to in depth for a student only seeing it for their first time...I was pissed but didn't really care, came back the next day finished the rest of the oral which was only 15 more min..flew for 1.8 and I had my CFI ticket...
 
Seems bogus. First of all was this an Inspector who works for the FSDO or a DPE? If it's a DPE it sounds like they wanted that retest fee. Also I thought it was required to NOT continue the flight if it is discontinued for an unsatisfactory reason...as in if you bust you bust no more testing. I could be wrong though.

Like others said just shake it off...people bust cfi rides for nonsensical stuff all the time. Hell, at our FSDO for a while I could almost guarantee a student wouldn't make it past the ground if it was on a Friday. Aint no thing...just go retest then drink a cold one when you pass
 
The front of the pts says the examiner can give the applicant the option of continuing after failing a task. If you fail your oral you can not go on to the flight though.
 
Maurus said:
The front of the pts says the examiner can give the applicant the option of continuing after failing a task. If you fail your oral you can not go on to the flight though.
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What is this PTS with which you speak?

Hmm, never seen that in there. Now I wish I remember where I heard that. Myth dispelled.
 
Crockrocket94 said:
I just wouldnt use that examiner.
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IF you do a retest with a different examiner for an initial CFI, you will have to schedule it with the FSDO. Which means you are probably redoing the whole ride and oral, and there is a good chance you will be doing it with a Fed. I'd prefer to just redo the one maneuver with the same examiner.
 
drunkenbeagle said:
IF you do a retest with a different examiner for an initial CFI, you will have to schedule it with the FSDO. Which means you are probably redoing the whole ride and oral, and there is a good chance you will be doing it with a Fed. I'd prefer to just redo the one maneuver with the same examiner.
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I'm doing my retest on Tuesday and all I have to do is go out and do that simulation and then I'm done.
 
i had one of my students recently bust for "getting too close to B airspace".

Can examiners take over the controls at anytime and say "we're done, lets go back"?

I'm sure the only reason my student failed was due to the fact that the examiner saw that it was 4:30 in the afternoon and decided he wanted to go home.

i've heard of things like this happening, but until it happens to someone you know, it really doesnt bother you.
 
Where did you go for your CFI test? That sounds similar to my experience. I almost failed over scaring the cows during my emergency. The examiner ripped me the rest of the ride over those dam cows. You mentioned her, was it Barbara?
 
I see you did it in a A36. So you stayed local, must have been Barbara. I always enjoyed her as an examiner. I sent my students to her as well. Once you get that ticket head south as all the schools are starting to hire. Oh, don't feel bad, Barb failed me once too.
 
cfitime said:
I see you did it in a A36. So you stayed local, must have been Barbara. I always enjoyed her as an examiner. I sent my students to her as well. Once you get that ticket head south as all the schools are starting to hire. Oh, don't feel bad, Barb failed me once too.
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It was with the FAA.
 
You took it with the FSDO right? So this examiner was a fed? I've seen and heard of stupid busts like this. Basically, it boils down to the examiner being a moron/ahole (if everything is as you say it is). Did you explain to him that you recovered at 1000 ft AGL. Maybe he didn't know what altitude that was and thought you were lower than you were? Did he want you to add 50 ft to the 1000 for the "tallest object within a 2000 ft radius?" Even so, the 500 ft rule should have applied based on your description. But I've heard feds call a rusty barbed wire fence in the middle of nowhere a "structure."

As for the engine failure, maybe he wanted to surprise you? Maybe he forgot what he briefed? Who knows.

Most people fail there CFI initial. Also, you have a good explanation, so I don't think it will hurt you too much in the future. If your worried about it you may want to call AOPA and ask them what your options are.

Did you get something stating why you failed? What does that say?
 
Trev0079 said:
It was with the FAA.
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if what you're saying happened as it happened, it sounds like the FAA doesn't know their own regulations. This no longer surprises me anymore. The people who should know it best, often don't.

Trev0079 said:

§ 91.119 Minimum safe altitudes: General.

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Except when necessary for takeoff or landing, no person may operate an aircraft below the following altitudes:

(a) Anywhere. An altitude allowing, if a power unit fails, an emergency landing without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.

(b) Over congested areas. Over any congested area of a city, town, or settlement, or over any open air assembly of persons, an altitude of 1,000 feet above the highest obstacle within a horizontal radius of 2,000 feet of the aircraft.

(c) Over other than congested areas. An altitude of 500 feet above the surface, except over open water or sparsely populated areas. In those cases, the aircraft may not be operated closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure.
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There's nothing you can do about this except take it as a learning experience. Your students will greatly benefit from hearing your story and ultimately they'll probably be more cognizant of congested areas below them as a result. Thanks for sharing man and good luck to you.
 
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