Stadium TFR's

Zero1Niner

Zero1Niner

Well-Known Member
How the heo are pilots supposed to know when an event is happening at a stadium that is covered by a TFR? The briefers dont seem to have knowledge or information on this as far as I can tell.

How do you guys deal with this?
 
Zero1Niner said:
How the heo are pilots supposed to know when an event is happening at a stadium that is covered by a TFR? The briefers dont seem to have knowledge or information on this as far as I can tell.

How do you guys deal with this?
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You monitor the local radio channel covering it. I flew out of an airport for a long time that was under a stadium TFR, and the whole "it starts one hour before kick-off and ends one hour after the end of the game" is a little hard to comply with. So we kept a radio or TV on the game.
 
I say to myself, "Hmm, it's footbal season. I wonder if [insert name of team] is playing today]," and look it up as part of my flight planning.
 
If your not a sports fan, and not familiar with the local area, then what say ye?

Its crap that the FAA wants to enforce a TFR, but not have the responsibility to at the least PUBLISH the TFR and have that information available to briefers and on the TFR website. Seems insane to me.
 
I agree, but there is an exclusion in the TFR for if you're under ATC control. So if you're flying into an area you're not familiar with, get flight following, and you're covered.
 
msmspilot said:
I agree, but there is an exclusion in the TFR for if you're under ATC control. So if you're flying into an area you're not familiar with, get flight following, and you're covered.
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Totally forgot about that exclusion. Great tip!

That same exclusion seems to apply to the Disney 'PFR' as well (permanent flight restriction, yet uncharted TFR...ridiculous. Dont even get me started on that nonsense).
 
Zero1Niner said:
Totally forgot about that exclusion. Great tip!

That same exclusion seems to apply to the Disney 'PFR' as well (permanent flight restriction, yet uncharted TFR...ridiculous. Dont even get me started on that nonsense).
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Uh. Yeah. Just [insert] RANT!!!!!!!! [/insert], and we'll call it square. ;)
 
mshunter said:
Or you could just check TFR's.


http://tfr.faa.gov/tfr2/list.html


It's got these amazing features that allow you to check by state, or center.
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That doesn't show stadium TFR's though. FSS has always recomended buying the local paper.

However, your local to me and the only one we need to worry about is the Los Dodgers (go doyers!) and you can see the parking lot/lights from more than 3 miles away. Regardless, flight following takes care of it.

When are you coming to LGB to check out the new operation?
 
Zero1Niner said:
If your not a sports fan, and not familiar with the local area, then what say ye?
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Exactly the same thing. I don't think you need to be a sports fan to know what season it is and whether there are professional or Division 1 stadiums or an applicable speedway in the area.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Exactly the same thing. I don't think you need to be a sports fan to know what season it is and whether there are professional or Division 1 stadiums or an applicable speedway in the area.
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Sorry Mark, bad assumption (and honestly not the kind of answer to this problem that I expected from you). Not being a sports fan myself, I dont know what season we are in at any given time, or whether a stadium is pro (unless its in my local area of course)...and I dont even know what division 1 is, so I certainly dont know that schedule.

The 'you should just know these things' just ain't working in this case, and is not a reasonable requirement. There is enough stuff that we are required to 'just know' as pilots, but sport game schedules certainly shouldnt be one of them.
 
Codyjp said:
That doesn't show stadium TFR's though. FSS has always recomended buying the local paper.

However, your local to me and the only one we need to worry about is the Los Dodgers (go doyers!) and you can see the parking lot/lights from more than 3 miles away. Regardless, flight following takes care of it.

When are you coming to LGB to check out the new operation?
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I've seen TFR's on that page for sports before. Unfortunatly, I can't find any sports games in progress right now, so I can't prove it. But I have seen them for Dodgers stadium. But, if you have a record of a checking for TFR's, and one's not published, I'd imagine that AOPA(if you have thier legal help plan), could help you out.

If it's not published, then like others have said, piss up a rope! How was I supposed to know?
 
mshunter said:
I've seen TFR's on that page for sports before. Unfortunatly, I can't find any sports games in progress right now, so I can't prove it. But I have seen them for Dodgers stadium. But, if you have a record of a checking for TFR's, and one's not published, I'd imagine that AOPA(if you have thier legal help plan), could help you out.

If it's not published, then like others have said, piss up a rope! How was I supposed to know?
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That's the problem with the stadium TFRs. The FAA says they're published because there's a blanket "pro, division I, nascar, etc stay 3 mi and/or 3000 ft away from 1 hr before to 1 hr after." Last I checked, AOPA had a list of all the affected airports and locations of all the stadiums, but the FAA did not. So you could check the NOTAMS, have the briefer give you the NOTAM, and still bust this one if you're not careful.
 
mshunter said:
If it's not published, then like others have said, piss up a rope! How was I supposed to know?
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...and the Fed's would hand you a violation holmes. The FAA TFR website is not an approved way to check for current TFR data. As stupid as it sounds...

FAA TFR Website Disclaimer at the Bottom said:
Depicted TFR data may not be a complete listing. Pilots should not use the information on this website for flight planning purposes. For the latest information, call your local Flight Service Station at 1-800-WX-BRIEF.
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Zero1Niner said:
That same exclusion seems to apply to the Disney 'PFR' as well (permanent flight restriction, yet uncharted TFR...ridiculous. Dont even get me started on that nonsense).
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It's an illusion of security; you can still get violated for busting Mickey's airspace even if ATC told you to.
 
aloft said:
It's an illusion of security; you can still get violated for busting Mickey's airspace even if ATC told you to.
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I certainly hope you're wrong. It's not what the TFR says.

Disney TFR said:
ALL AIRCRAFT FLIGHT OPERATIONS ARE PROHIBITED WITHIN A 3 NMR OF 334805N/1175517W OR THE SLI066006.8 UP TO AND INCLUDING 3000 FT AGL EFFECTIVE 0902170801 UTC (0001 LOCAL 02/17/09) UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE. THE RESTRICTIONS DO NOT APPLY TO; THOSE AIRCRAFT AUTHORIZED BY AND IN CONTACT WITH ATC FOR OPERATIONAL OR SAFETY OF FLIGHT PURPOSES, DEPARTMENT OF DEFENSE, LAW ENFORCEMENT, AND AIR AMBULANCE FLIGHT OPERATIONS. FLIGHTS CONDUCTED FOR OPERATIONAL PURPOSES OF ANY DISNEY
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aloft said:
It's an illusion of security; you can still get violated for busting Mickey's airspace even if ATC told you to.
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So every time they tell me "Descend and maintain two thousand, fly heading so and so vectors for the ILS runway 30 (and enjoy your view of downtown Disney!)" I've been busting it?

No, I don't think so. Not if I'm on an IFR clearance and Air Traffic Control is being exercised over my flight.

If I'm VFR, though and outside the Class B, I don't think I'm on a clearance, and so I could be violated for busting the TFR. (Regardless of who I'm talking to and whether or not I'm receiving flight following...prior radio contact is not a clearance.)
 
jhugz said:
...and the Fed's would hand you a violation holmes. The FAA TFR website is not an approved way to check for current TFR data. As stupid as it sounds...
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I understand that, and have seen it. But the OP's complaint was about WXBrief not knowing about stadium TFR's. So if you get a brief, and they don't tell you, how can a violation be justified?


And as someone else said, it's an illusion of security. Remember the float plane pilot recently who illuded two F15's that were supersonic? Who's to say that someone coulden't just get over the top of a TFR, or close to one, and just push the nose over and go crashing right int it......... The only way to be truly secure is to shut down EVERYTHING, and have the government bring us our food/toiletries/etc. to our homes. Kinda like a prision.
 
mshunter said:
And as someone else said, it's an illusion of security. Remember the float plane pilot recently who illuded two F15's that were supersonic? Who's to say that someone coulden't just get over the top of a TFR, or close to one, and just push the nose over and go crashing right int it......... The only way to be truly secure is to shut down EVERYTHING, and have the government bring us our food/toiletries/etc. to our homes. Kinda like a prision.
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:yeahthat:

:clap:
 
mshunter said:
But the OP's complaint was about WXBrief not knowing about stadium TFR's. So if you get a brief, and they don't tell you, how can a violation be justified?
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That is precisely the point. The FAA wants to hold us accountable for remaining clear of a specific area at a specific time, yet not have the responsibility to provide us with the appropriate information on the restriction. Seems completely INSANE to me. They should simply pay one or two more workers $100K/year to add these event schedules to the freaking website and supply the information to the briefers.

If people are getting violated for this frequently, why the heo is the AOPA not taking this issue on? Or are they?
 
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