SR 20 vs DA40 vs C172

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
My wife and I have been toying with the idea of buying an airplane for leaseback for a tax shelter for our bidness. I guess in 2008 you can depreciate a huge amount if you buy a bidness asset by EOY.
Looking at c172, da40 and sr 20.

Anyone ever done this before? Any advice?? I suppose that it will take a lot of DD if and when we take this step.

Anyhoo, they had a GA sales exposition at knoxville I got a demo in a SR22 GTS turbo. Demo pilot says it is the same plane as the SR 20 just faster. I gotta say I love the cirrus. It was the nicest GA airplane I have ever flown. (Even though I rotated ten knots too fast, turned way to early for final and flared uhh, er a "little " to high when I was convinced I was going to drive it into the ground):panic:
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
I'll tell you the DA40 has a better safety record, it is cheaper and just as fun to fly. Also only burns 10GPH or less and will still pull off 150 KTS at altitude.

Cirrus is a nice aircraft, has a parachute which really can cause more problems that it fixes. So many stories of chutes being pulled when they shouldn't have. The SR22 burns about 17 GPH in cruise. Also because of the large engine it has become the new doctor killer as if you are new to aviation or new to high performance, it isn't the plane for you.

The Cessna, really? Would you want a C-172?

I would recommend the Diamond overall, better safety rating, only 180 HP engine, but still performs much better than the 172SP as it has the same fuel consumption but can go higher, further, and faster because of the better design of the aircraft. Any questions go ahead and contact me.

Also a new flight school most likely will not use an SR22 for training, and if they do it would only be for high performance checkouts as the SR-22 will cost so much not many people would want to rent it.

The DA-40 at my flight school goes for 155/hr with the G1000, up to date GPS, Terrain, traffic, XM weather and radio. Only thing it doesn't have is WAAS (which is available on new G1000's) and the chart service enabled.
 

CirrusMonkey

No Real Usefulness
My wife and I have been toying with the idea of buying an airplane for leaseback for a tax shelter for our bidness. I guess in 2008 you can depreciate a huge amount if you buy a bidness asset by EOY.
Looking at c172, da40 and sr 20.

Anyone ever done this before? Any advice?? I suppose that it will take a lot of DD if and when we take this step.

Anyhoo, they had a GA sales exposition at knoxville I got a demo in a SR22 GTS turbo. Demo pilot says it is the same plane as the SR 20 just faster. I gotta say I love the cirrus. It was the nicest GA airplane I have ever flown. (Even though I rotated ten knots too fast, turned way to early for final and flared uhh, er a "little " to high when I was convinced I was going to drive it into the ground):panic:
Hey Sean. I love the Cirrus! I have never flown a DA40 so I cannot give you any info on that. I agree with the guy with the weird avitar above (sorry could not resist:D), an SR-22 is hard to do a leaseback on. The SR-20 however, is not. I disagree on the whole parachute thing. I think that any pilot who has ever flown a Cirrus would agree that when faced with the decision of when to pull/not pull the chute is a no-brainer.
The landing "flare" took a little time to perfect for me. I have a buddy who own an SR-20 who does a lease back to a flight school in PHX. He has quite a bit of info on leasebacks and said that he would give me a call in a few days. I'll let you know!

PS: How is you Father doing? Hope all is well man.
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Thanks Maurus

Not looking at buying a SR22, but rather a SR 20 for leaseback.

The idea is a tax shelter for a business, so if a C172 makes a better business case than a da 40 or sr20 then that would be why I would want it.

Unfortunately, I would have to lease it out to a good school where it could almost always break even.

If I were buying one for me it would be the srs22 gts or a columbia-cessna.
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Hey Sean. I love the Cirrus! I have never flown a DA40 so I cannot give you any info on that. I agree with the guy with the weird avitar above (sorry could not resist:D), an SR-22 is hard to do a leaseback on. The SR-20 however, is not. I disagree on the whole parachute thing. I think that any pilot who has ever flown a Cirrus would agree that when faced with the decision of when to pull/not pull the chute is a no-brainer.
The landing "flare" took a little time to perfect for me. I have a buddy who own an SR-20 who does a lease back to a flight school in PHX. He has quite a bit of info on leasebacks and said that he would give me a call in a few days. I'll let you know!

PS: How is you Father doing? Hope all is well man.
Thanks buddy, I appreciate all the gouge on the leasebacks i can get. I am looking at the SR 20 vice SR22. This will depend on what the mujercita wants to do, she is the boss...
My dad pulled through, but I think I am going to take him off my travel pass so he will stay put and fully recover.:mad:

Here's to us not getting the f word.
 

bdhill1979

Gone West
I'll tell you the DA40 has a better safety record, it is cheaper and just as fun to fly. Also only burns 10GPH or less and will still pull off 150 KTS at altitude.
With approx 250 hours in the DA40 I have never gotten one past 135 KTAS in level flight.

Maybe the XL model can (which I believe had a tuned exhaust) but not the regular ones.
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
Don't get a plane thinking that a leaseback will break even or make money. i have a SR20 and I can get 135kts 8.5gph at 6000. I like the size over the DA40 (Brett knows why). Hard compare when the comparible plane to the SR20 and DA40 is a C182, not 172. If looking to leaseback to help reduce cost of ownership I would go with the C172. You can get a low time one still under warranty for a fairly decent price (did I just say that knowing the price of a G1000 C172????)

Brett I really need to get you up in the SR20, you're convert once you fly it! You will get your Dad to get rid of the Arrow for one!
 

taildragger173

Well-Known Member
C-172 appeals to the greatest amount of people as far as leasebacks are concerned. Parts are easy to come by and insurance isnt going to be astronomical. Just something to think about.
 

-=Deniz=-

Well-Known Member
I have flown all three of those aircraft. I did some PPl training stuff in the 172, some roll and g-pulling stuff in the DA40, and then the IFR stuff in the Cirrus. (Easy!)

From the maintenance point of view mechanics like the cessna product the best followed by the cirrus (most guys can't troubleshoot the avionics), and then the Diamond (due to the cramped spaces and Euuropean style 'cut and paste design').

From the Insurance point of view it's the Cirrus 20 that will get you the cheaper rates because of the parachute and the autopilot, and the non- high performance engine. The Cirrus 22 is a different story there is no flight director on most models and there is a 310hp engine which is a bit much for someone starting to fly, (I remember i was flying the 22 by myself and did 120kt climb on takeoff.....i was around 2500+ fpm and all I could see was the blue sky out front, which is pretty weird especially if your not flying a jet). The Cessna would probably come in after the Diamond because there have been more cessna incidents than Diamnond incidents. Also the diamond has an emergency safety exit on the ceiling while the cessna has only the main doors and that little cargo hatch in the back, so.........

From the owners point of view, I guess if you can afford the gas your good to go:) But this is very important!!!!!! if you are sure you are going to put your plane on a leaseback make sure that not only the school/charter company has insurance coverage but also the pilots that plan to fly your plane.
 

minitour

New Member
Speaking just from the "business sense" of it, you're going to get more usefulness out of a C172 leaseback to a flight school.

My flight school used leasebacks exclusively and we had the 152/172 fleet. Worked out very well for us and the aircraft owners.

Where are you thinking about leasing back? Any ideas yet?

If you haven't already, make sure you talk to school management before pulling the trigger on this one.

-mini
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
I think the people mentioning the C172 have the right idea. The 172 isn't the sexiest or best performing aircraft out there but it gets the job done in a flight school environment while being very economical. I can't speak for the DA40 but I've flown plenty of Cirrus and I know for a fact that you cannot get that thing down to 8.5 gph in cruise at 6,000 ft. Most of the cruise numbers I have seen are around 135 kts and 10.5-11.5 gph around average cruising altitudes of 5,000 ft - 8,000 ft. I'm not trying to say the Cirrus isn't a great airplane to fly but it simply isn't economical for a flight school because of the high operating costs.

The other problem with the Cirrus is the maintenance. My flight school operates a fleet of 28 of them and the issues they're having are racking up some very high expenses. We've been having disintegrating mags, cracked engine cases, cracked muffler shrouds, doors that won't shut, sticking valves, and plenty of cylinder issues. All of our SR20s are around the 1,000 hour mark which I think you would reach on a flight school plane relatively quick. I'm not trying to say the Cirrus isn't a great airplane to fly but it simply isn't economical for a flight school because of the high operating costs.

I also don't see how insurance would be cheaper than for a 172 in the SR20. Insurance companies know the 172 track record where as the SR20 is still pretty new.

I think a properly priced C172 would be the most economical choice for a flight school and of the 3 most likely to make a slight return, if any. Like others have said it's not very likely a leaseback will make you any money because the money you make will end up being spent on buying a new engine when the time comes.

Just my thoughs...
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
Speaking just from the "business sense" of it, you're going to get more usefulness out of a C172 leaseback to a flight school.

My flight school used leasebacks exclusively and we had the 152/172 fleet. Worked out very well for us and the aircraft owners.

Where are you thinking about leasing back? Any ideas yet?

If you haven't already, make sure you talk to school management before pulling the trigger on this one.

-mini
Mini,
i am thinking that the flight school and their management are going to be the most important factor if i do this. As you could guess, if it goes that far I have a good idea on who i would approach on the diamond. Not too sure about the others.
This whole idea was predicated on us moving our business operations to the states. I have no depreciable assets in the US and would have a huge tax exposure. If I get furloughed I think I am heading back across the pond, so this may not happen.

I might call you up one day and pick your brain...
 

granlistillo

Well-Known Member
I think the people mentioning the C172 have the right idea. The 172 isn't the sexiest or best performing aircraft out there but it gets the job done in a flight school environment while being very economical.
Yeah as far as a platform goes, that might be right, 172 has been around for a long time. Now finding the right school. Then the other 100 things that have to fall into place.
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
plenty of Cirrus and I know for a fact that you cannot get that thing down to 8.5 gph in cruise at 6,000 ft. Most of the cruise numbers I have seen are around 135 kts and 10.5-11.5 gph around average cruising altitudes of 5,000 ft - 8,000 ft.
i have done it alot lean of peak, alone in the aircraft and only a laptop as baggage. Its an SR20 not 22
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
i have done it alot lean of peak, alone in the aircraft and only a laptop as baggage. Its an SR20 not 22
That seems awfully low. I've done quite a few flights with just myself and my flight bag in the plane. Using the lean assist I'll go lean of peak which is what they call Best Economy. The lowest I've ever seen is about 10 gph. Those are just my observations...

What power setting are you running? I usually cruise 65%-75% power.
 

ComplexHiAv8r

Well-Known Member
That is the lower end of the Best Economy, and you have to watch as it will return to leaning.... and you have to adjust. I haven't leaned to lean of peak that much lately as I seem to want to get places so I usually end of running at best power. My observations. Flights are OH to PA or MI usually.



That seems awfully low. I've done quite a few flights with just myself and my flight bag in the plane. Using the lean assist I'll go lean of peak which is what they call Best Economy. The lowest I've ever seen is about 10 gph. Those are just my observations...
 

bronco21016

I know H.T.M.L. (How To Meet Ladies)
That is the lower end of the Best Economy, and you have to watch as it will return to leaning.... and you have to adjust. I haven't leaned to lean of peak that much lately as I seem to want to get places so I usually end of running at best power. My observations. Flights are OH to PA or MI usually.
I'll have to check it out next time I get to do a longer flight in the Cirrus.
 

Maurus

The Great Gazoo
With approx 250 hours in the DA40 I have never gotten one past 135 KTAS in level flight.

Maybe the XL model can (which I believe had a tuned exhaust) but not the regular ones.
Yup, I have been flying the DA40XL. It definately can get up to those speeds, get some altitude and run 25in of manifold pressure with about 2700 RPM's on the prop and you are golden. Yes the prop and engine is rated to run at a constant 2700 RPM :nana2: The XL model has a few other items such as the Tri-prop and such that allows it to go faster and carry more weight (2645 lbs max gross)

Don't get a plane thinking that a leaseback will break even or make money. i have a SR20 and I can get 135kts 8.5gph at 6000. I like the size over the DA40 (Brett knows why). Hard compare when the comparible plane to the SR20 and DA40 is a C182, not 172. If looking to leaseback to help reduce cost of ownership I would go with the C172. You can get a low time one still under warranty for a fairly decent price (did I just say that knowing the price of a G1000 C172????)

Brett I really need to get you up in the SR20, you're convert once you fly it! You will get your Dad to get rid of the Arrow for one!
Ha, after I posted that I knew you were going to say something. :p

Too bad he wont get rid of the Arrow for the SR20 considering the slight difference in price :sarcasm: It would be great if he did, I would be flying it every day.

I still do need to fly in a Cirrus to get a good feel for the differences, but I don't see a leaseback on a SR20 getting anywhere near the breakeven point. As others said the C-172 would be the best for leaseback purposes, then the DA40, then the Cirrus SR20 IMO (currently). I do know of someone selling a used SR22 GTS for 350,000 though...

Also the new DA50 will give the SR22 some good competition.
 
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