Squall line approaching on taxi out

sargeanb

New Member
A little regional airline scenario for you all:) You've just arrived in ROA (Roanoke, VA). On the way in from CVG (Cincinnati), you picked your way through a pretty significant line of T-storms about 50 miles long, moving east. The line was about 40 miles from the field when you landed. Upon landing in ROA, the sun is out, with high overcast, light winds. This is a quick turn, and you'll be heading back to CVG. While the pax are boarding, you notice it getting dark to the west, behind the mountains. You call dispatch and ask for an update on the wx, and they say the line of storms will be on the airport in about 20 minutes, but you should have enough time to get out, and they say if you deviate southwest you can get around the worst of it.

As soon as you start taxiing out, a dark line of clouds emerges from behind the mountains a few miles to the west. Lightning is flashing to the southwest with an obvious rain shaft, the sky is lighter gray to the north, immediately west it looks something like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/10966049@N04/2542948709/. To the west coming towards the field, no lightning, but clouds with some obvious power in them, no rain to speak of yet.

As you taxi out, you taxi past another RJ that will be heading in the same direction, stopped on the taxiway, and the crew is asking tower what they're showing. They report windshear in all quadrants, significant precip to the southwest. You decide to continue to the end of the runway, and will assess the situation there. By the time you've reached the end of the runway (about 5 minutes), the line of clouds is over the field, rapidly moving east, and the wind picks up rapidly. You point the nose west, and take a look with the radar. A large area of red greets you on the screen, but taking a look at the 3000+ ft mountains just west of the field, the radar picture matches them perfectly, and you realize you're just looking at the terrain, and it's blocking you from looking at the weather. The FO asks tower for a wind check, and it's 35G40, variable, and still windshear in all quads. The wind is buffeting the airplane a bit, and the pax are probably pretty concerned. You make a PA and explain the situation. Obviously you wont be going anywhere for a while. You call dispatch again, and they dont help much this time. They report the same weather as last time, and say if tower says it looks OK, go for it.

Both engines are running (you had planned on getting out before the storms came), you've got about a half hour to your min departure fuel. To the west, and north, the sky is light gray. To the east, the darkest clouds still push east at high speed. Still lightning and rain to the south. Do you go back to the gate? What would you do? I'll tell you what we did a bit later.
 
This isn't that complicated.

You don't take off.

I mean seriously what reason do you have to depart into windsheer and a squal line?

You shut down both engines, leave the APU on and sit at the end of the runway. The storm will be over you within 10 minutes and you can get out of town without any problems.

There is NO reason to try to beat a thunderstorm out, they move so quickly that after 10-15 minutes they're not a factor and you can depart without any problems.
 
I'd say it's pretty straight forward. Sit it out and leave when it's gone. There is no reason to blast off into that sort of stuff, even if there weren't mountains all over the place to funnel the winds on top of you.

A squall line like that will be moving at a pretty good clip and you won't have to wait too long.
 
I'd hang out and wait....Shut'em down if you have an APU, if you don't just shut one engine down. It's nice to get the dispatchers input as to what he sees on his weather screen, he can give you a good idea of the overall picture etc and they're very useful in that sense. But when you suck the gear up and get "Windshear Windshear!" he'll be in the air conditioned office while you'll be fighting to keep the plane in the air.

I've found it's initially a harder decision to say "no go," rather than "go." But I've always felt I made the safest decision in retrospect. And even sometimes when I said "go" I looked back and realized I compromised my safety more than I should have (talking more GA flying, not 121).
 
This is why I want an iPhone. Tower and Dispatch telling you where the cells are really doesn't mean much. A picture is worth a thousand words. For the record I'd stay put until the wind dies down and the cell is no longer over top the field. Just because there isn't rain doesn't mean the bottom won't drop out it at any time. A level 5/6 is a pretty serious storm.

A guy I used to work with said something to this effect:

"If it takes you longer than 10 minutes to determine if you should go, you probably shouldn't."
 
Simple, absolutely no debate required. The only thing to do is take off, at 50 ft, roll it inverted and fly through the storms upside down....freakin duh!
 
A little regional airline scenario for you all:) You've just arrived in ROA (Roanoke, VA). On the way in from CVG (Cincinnati), you picked your way through a pretty significant line of T-storms about 50 miles long, moving east. The line was about 40 miles from the field when you landed. Upon landing in ROA, the sun is out, with high overcast, light winds. This is a quick turn, and you'll be heading back to CVG. While the pax are boarding, you notice it getting dark to the west, behind the mountains. You call dispatch and ask for an update on the wx, and they say the line of storms will be on the airport in about 20 minutes, but you should have enough time to get out, and they say if you deviate southwest you can get around the worst of it.

As soon as you start taxiing out, a dark line of clouds emerges from behind the mountains a few miles to the west. Lightning is flashing to the southwest with an obvious rain shaft, the sky is lighter gray to the north, immediately west it looks something like this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/10966049@N04/2542948709/. To the west coming towards the field, no lightning, but clouds with some obvious power in them, no rain to speak of yet.

As you taxi out, you taxi past another RJ that will be heading in the same direction, stopped on the taxiway, and the crew is asking tower what they're showing. They report windshear in all quadrants, significant precip to the southwest. You decide to continue to the end of the runway, and will assess the situation there. By the time you've reached the end of the runway (about 5 minutes), the line of clouds is over the field, rapidly moving east, and the wind picks up rapidly. You point the nose west, and take a look with the radar. A large area of red greets you on the screen, but taking a look at the 3000+ ft mountains just west of the field, the radar picture matches them perfectly, and you realize you're just looking at the terrain, and it's blocking you from looking at the weather. The FO asks tower for a wind check, and it's 35G40, variable, and still windshear in all quads. The wind is buffeting the airplane a bit, and the pax are probably pretty concerned. You make a PA and explain the situation. Obviously you wont be going anywhere for a while. You call dispatch again, and they dont help much this time. They report the same weather as last time, and say if tower says it looks OK, go for it.

Both engines are running (you had planned on getting out before the storms came), you've got about a half hour to your min departure fuel. To the west, and north, the sky is light gray. To the east, the darkest clouds still push east at high speed. Still lightning and rain to the south. Do you go back to the gate? What would you do? I'll tell you what we did a bit later.

All you have to say is "winds variable at 35g40" and that it's an airport with mountains around it, and it becomes a no-brainer.
 
Simple, absolutely no debate required. The only thing to do is take off, at 50 ft, roll it inverted and fly through the storms upside down....freakin duh!

Damn you read my mind...that's exactly what we did. The pax LOVED it. They all clapped and whooped when we did it. Then when they deboarded in CVG, they said we were "teh awewsomest" Obviously I'm kidding;)...continue discussion...
 
What would you do at night when you can't see what color the clouds are?
With your type of cargo, I'd wait it out purely because who cares if you are late and the pax don't need to deal with that rough ride.
 
Was it really 35G40 variable? I think even the freight would have to wait. That said, if it was 35G40 in a reasonably straight line and your picture was the worst of it (that's VFR!), I'd think pretty hard about going in something with no passengers. It doesn't look like it's that far to the edge and you can fly under the precip. Extra pull on the seatbelt required, though.
 
Obviously you wont be going anywhere for a while. You call dispatch again, and they dont help much this time. They report the same weather as last time, and say if tower says it looks OK, go for it.

Don't let anybody who isn't sitting next to you in the cockpit help you make a decision.

Remember, it's always smooth and CAVU from their seat on the mahogany bomber!
 
Don't let anybody who isn't sitting next to you in the cockpit help you make a decision.

There's great CRM right there.

I would sit and wait out a fully-developed squall line - even with freight. They move so quickly that I believe it's just the right thing to do. However, I think that maybe the tougher scenario is when you're trying to beat out a fast-moving squall with a planned departure to the east, not west (like an STL to CVG flight, for example). That opens up the debate a lot more.
 
Well, it would never take a freight pilot five minutes to get to the runway. There's your problem right there! :p

Taxi checklist: Ignitions, conditions, flaps, transponder, strobes, hail mary full of grace...
 
There's great CRM right there.

I think you took that the wrong way. In other words, having a dispatcher telling you the weather is 'fine' while they sit 1000 miles away looking at a computer screen doesn't mean much IMO when you are looking outside at the storm.

Also, to further the discussion, we have a responsibility to our passengers to keep them feeling safe. If we scare the crap out of them they might not come back, regardless if it was "safe" to go.
 
There's great CRM right there.

I would sit and wait out a fully-developed squall line - even with freight. They move so quickly that I believe it's just the right thing to do. However, I think that maybe the tougher scenario is when you're trying to beat out a fast-moving squall with a planned departure to the east, not west (like an STL to CVG flight, for example). That opens up the debate a lot more.

I'd at least think about going with the eastbound scenario. Go to the hold short line, and get the latest temp, winds, etc from ATC. And as long as they can GUARANTEE me a 180 after takeoff, and there is NO windshear reported, i'd probably depart.
 
Hi all,
I was the relieving local controller that evening at ROA and the one that took the pix. It was a very strange weather situation, one that made the controllers run to roll up their windows and move their motorcycles to safety. It looked like armageddon out the window and on the radar scope, but we got nothing but a few raindrops and a little wind.

I posted another photo here http://www.flickr.com/photos/10966049@N04/2574620328/

that shows the other CRJ waiting and I've got plenty more if anyone wants to see. The CHQ dude did the smart thing and departed to the Northeast. I apologize for the previous controller, he's newly checked out and.....well
 
I think you took that the wrong way. In other words, having a dispatcher telling you the weather is 'fine' while they sit 1000 miles away looking at a computer screen doesn't mean much IMO when you are looking outside at the storm.

Also, to further the discussion, we have a responsibility to our passengers to keep them feeling safe. If we scare the crap out of them they might not come back, regardless if it was "safe" to go.

I agree, all airline employees have a responsibility to keep the passengers safe. Hopefully the dispatcher wouldn't tell you the weather is "fine" if there is a squall line approaching. It sounds like this dispatcher said "here's what I'm seeing, if you want to depart than here's what I suggest you do", and left the decision up to the crew who it sounds like wisely stayed put.
 
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