Spin training for CFIs

Blackhawk

Well-Known Member
Looking through recent accident summaries, and viewing the video of the recent Cirrus crash produced by AvWeb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nm_hoHhbFo)
I'm convinced we are doing a really crappy job of training CFIs in spins. Looking back four years in the NTSB data base I count at least 8 fatal stall/spin accidents with CFIs on board. This was a cursory look and I know of at least 4 accidents that were not included, so there are probably more than this. Another off the coast of California did not directly involve a CFI, but there was a passenger in the back and allegedly CFIs at the school had been showing spins with passengers in the back seat- prohibited by the 172 POH. So there are probably other accidents that did not directly involve CFIs, but were indirectly caused by poor teaching. Not sure if it is still a valid number, but I read once that 91% of fatal spin accidents involved CFIs. Some of the ones in the accident data base involve airplanes over weight but being spun, low level buzz jobs, airplanes being operated outside the parameters of the POH... other behavior that we should discouraging, not demonstrating as CFIs.
For Pete's sake, if you are interested in becoming a CFI please get your spin endorsement somewhere where you can explore spins, not from someone with 2 more spins than you. Go out on several flights and truly explore spins, recognize spins, and learn to stop them before they happen. Low level spins and snap rolls usually end badly and read what the spin endorsement actually says.
If you will be flying an unfamiliar airplane with a student research the stall/spin characteristics and maybe even fly it with a CFI experienced in the airframe first. Remember, 1500' AGL is the minimum RECOVERY (okay, the exact wording is "completed") altitude for stalls, not the initiation altitude. There are some popular models out there that will lose quite a bit of altitude if a stall gets away from you and turns into a spin. I won't mention model names as I don't want pilot to think I am slamming specific models, but this has killed some pilots out there during flight reviews when, according to radar, stalls were initiated at 1500' AGL.
If you are already a CFI go out from time to time and get some recurrent spin training. Especially if it's been a while.
And to those on this board who are more aerodynamically inclined than I am I thank you for sharing your knowledge even though I may express an opinion that you are a PITA at times.
 
This accident triggered a further soundpiece with John King and - ohhh, to late... which I posted somewhere else. Rich Stowell. Both went balistic on this. However, nobody responded IIRC.
 
This accident triggered a further soundpiece with John King and - ohhh, to late... which I posted somewhere else. Rich Stowell. Both went balistic on this. However, nobody responded IIRC.

I think it's because the Avydine system was finally able to confirm what many of us suspected- many CFIs out there were poorly trained on spins and this is killing a number of pilots.
 
The FAA has set themselves up for this one. Spins are only to be demonstrated to student pilots as well as commercial students. And I've talked to quite a few rated pilots who have never even been in a spin. Personally I don't see what is so bad with having a student demonstrate spin recovery, instead of just talking about it.
 
The FAA has set themselves up for this one. Spins are only to be demonstrated to student pilots as well as commercial students. And I've talked to quite a few rated pilots who have never even been in a spin. Personally I don't see what is so bad with having a student demonstrate spin recovery, instead of just talking about it.

Maybe it doesn't help that we're training in airplanes that either aren't certified for spins or they don't even spin reliably when you're trying to spin it?

I read a NASA report one time (which I can't find right now) that said when loaded in the Utility category even test pilots couldn't get the thing to spin a significant number of the times they tried. There's also a NASA report from the 70s that said the 172 would tend to spiral out of a spin around 2.5 to 3 turns.
 
If you can't spin and recover, needless to say....you should not be operating an aircraft. There are too many situations that call for spins that pilots should be aware of (pardon my english! sorry!!) =)
 
The FAA has set themselves up for this one. Spins are only to be demonstrated to student pilots as well as commercial students. And I've talked to quite a few rated pilots who have never even been in a spin. Personally I don't see what is so bad with having a student demonstrate spin recovery, instead of just talking about it.

Eh, I believe all pilots should know about spins, for it is in our nature to endure them. Just like it would seem crazy to not know the effects of tsunamis for a boat captain.


The Atmosphere is our medium of travel, and aircraft are our method of travel. Would it not make sense to take it into our training to go out and personally try to reproduce such a fluke?

Given the lack of those who do not try.....as a pilot, it is our duty..not the Administrator to overcome such obstacles. For we are the ones who dared to venture in the skies above, we are the ones that dared to join such an Elite club of women and men.

This train of thought should resound for all who venture in the clear blue and 82. Be the example...not the excuse.
 
If you can't spin and recover, needless to say....you should not be operating an aircraft.

Actually, if you can't spin and recover, then it's usually self-correcting, since you'll have the rest of your life to figure it out post-entry.
 
If you can't spin and recover, needless to say....you should not be operating an aircraft. There are too many situations that call for spins that pilots should be aware of (pardon my english! sorry!!) =)
Perhaps "needless to say" for some. But you need to explain it to me.

Care to mention a couple of the "many situations situations that call for spins"? Since there are so many of them, limit your answer to those where there's a good chance of recovery. I'm basically just a weekend pilot but so far I haven't come across any. I really want to know why I should not have been operating an aircraft until I got my CFI spin training.
 
Wow, there are numerous directions this thread could head in.

With regard to CFI spin training...I don't think CFIs, as a whole, industry-wide, will get proficient at spins until it is required to actually demo spins during the CFI checkride.

As the system stands now, it encourages corner cutting when it comes to spin training. There is no verification of anything. Therefore, there is no incentive to become truly proficient. It's cheaper, easier, and less time consuming to do a single flight, get the endorsement, and move on. For the CFI giving the spin training, there is virtually no consequence for giving inadequate training. With other endorsements, like, say, the complex endorsement, if the pilot lands gear up shortly after training, the CFI could have consequences if they didn't give good training...not so when it comes to spins.

How many pilots would be proficient in soft field operations if they weren't tested over it on the checkride? My guess is, unless the pilot specifically wanted to use grass/dirt strips, most CFIs would gloss over soft field ops in favor of getting the client through training faster and cheaper. Anyone can talk their way through a soft field takeoff, but performing one is a different game. They may or may not be proficient. Same with spins.

Now, the level of proficiency CFIs need to have with spins is debatable. But I don't expect anything to change until the testing requirements are changed.
 
Now, the level of proficiency CFIs need to have with spins is debatable. But I don't expect anything to change until the testing requirements are changed.
The usual arguments about spin training aside, the history of training requirements has been interesting. It also suggests that even when spin training was required, CFIs were not proficient it them.

From an early requirement for spin training for everyone, the FAA moved to no spin training for anyone. Some years after that the FAA moved to the present training requirement for CFI applicants but, as you say, no requirement for verification of the quality of that instruction in the checkride process. The last big change in this was back in 1991, when, among other things, the CFI spin training requirement was added. It's always time for another review, but here's what the FAA said then – and what those who want to change the requirements are battling. It's from the Federal Register containing the 1991 changes:

==============================
Stalls and Spins: Pilot Awareness, Training, and Testing

NPRM No. 89-14 included three proposals regarding stall/spin training for pilots and stall/spin training and testing for flight instructors of airplanes and gliders. The spin, a controlled or uncontrolled maneuver or performance in which the glider or airplane descends in a helical path while flying at an angle of attack greater than the angle of maximum lift, was a required training maneuver for pilot certification until 1949. It was deleted from the pilot certification requirements based on the high number of fatal stall and spin accidents, most of which occurred during training. The FAA has since placed greater emphasis on spin avoidance, particularly on training in the avoidance of unintentional stalls or unwanted unusual attitudes. This shift in training requirements resulted in a significant decrease in the number of stall/spin accidents since 1949. NTSB statistics indicate that stall/spin accidents fell from 48 percent of fatal general aviation accidents during the period 1945-48, to 22 percent during 1967-69, and to 12 or 13 percent in the 1970's. The stall/spin proposals in NPRM No. 89-14 constitute an effort to further reduce the already declining incidence of spin-related accidents in general aviation. The amendments contained in this rule will broaden stall and spin awareness training by emphasizing avoidance of unintentional stalls in addition to what is currently the more common procedure of practicing recovery from intentional stalls.

(a) Stall and Spin Awareness Training

The first of the three basic proposals would improve stall and spin awareness ground and flight training for airplane and glider pilots at the recreational, private, and commercial levels. As a result of the creation of the recreational pilot certificate, this final rule broadens the scope of the amendments to cover recreational pilots. This additional required training will incorporate the most effective types of training discussed in the FAA's 1976 report entitled General Aviation Pilot Stall Awareness Training Study (FAA-RD-77-26, September 1976). The study's emphasis is on training involving slow flight with realistic distractions and additional ground training in the subject of stalls and spins.

The new training will incorporate the essential elements of the General Aviation Pilot Stall Awareness Training Study in both ground and flight training for airplane and glider pilots, as recommended by the NTSB in its Recommendation A-78-43. As stated in the NPRM, the 1976 study concluded that additional ground training on stalls and spins tended to reduce the occurrence of unintentional stalls and spins. While the study concluded that "additional flight training on stall awareness and/or intentional spin training has a positive influence toward reducing inadvertent stalls and spins," it went on to state that "the most effective additional training was slow flight with realistic distractions, which exposed the subjects to situations where they are likely to experience inadvertent stalls." The study cited some examples of realistic distractions including asking the trainee to radio for weather information, getting something out of the glove compartment, picking up a dropped pencil, getting something from the rear seat, or computing true airspeed or density altitude with a flight planning computer. Indeed, the study found that spin training "might not be feasible."
General reaction to the proposal was favorable. Twenty-four commenters favored the requirement to enhance stall and spin awareness and recovery training, as proposed. All of the principal organizations commenting on the proposal, including ALPA, AOPA, and AOPA ASF favored, in varying degrees, were in favor of the expanded stall and spin awareness training. The Michigan Aeronautics Commission stated, "with additional stall awareness training, is the most germane and realistic method to teaching stalls/spins, without imposing unrealistic demands on general aviation. We believe that mandatory demonstration of spins for private and commercial pilot applicants is not in the best interest of pilots, [flight instructors], pilot examiners, and the general aviation community." SSA concurred with the revisions, but suggested a clarification in Secs. 61.105 and 61.125, "aeronautical knowledge," in which stall and spin awareness will be included.

Ten commenters opposed the stall and spin awareness training amendment. Much of this opposition was based on a preference for reinstating a requirement for actual spin training for all pilots.

SETP, in association with SAFE, was concerned that the NPRM proposal advocated ground training only. They suggested mandatory spin training in an approved utility class aerobatic trainer.


Note of Clarification: The required flight training for pilot applicants includes flight at slow airspeeds with realistic distractions and the recognition of and recovery from stalls entered from straight flight and from turns, but do not include a requirement for actual spin training for pilot applicants. However, actual spin entry, spins, and spin recovery training in flight is required for flight instructor airplane and flight instructor glider applicants.


Proponents of more extensive flight training that would include spin training maintained that stall and spin awareness and spin avoidance training make pilots afraid of spins and are ultimately unsafe. One commenter called spin awareness training a "failed concept." Other commenters said that many instructors are afraid of spins and pass that fear along to their students.

NATA, on the other hand, while supporting the NPRM proposal, said it was "disturbing that spins and stalls are always grouped together. In our view, a flight instructor should not demonstrate spins to student pilots, but rather, should concentrate on stall recognition and recovery. What should be stressed in training is the avoidance of conditions leading to a stall so that a spin is not entered into by the pilot."

That concept is the essence of what the NPRM proposed and of the amendment adopted in this final rule. While the FAA has no basis for discouraging qualified instructors from demonstrating spins or training pilots in spin entry and recovery under appropriate circumstances, the FAA is not requiring such demonstration or training. From a safety point of view, the critical element remains heightened awareness of recovery from stalls before a spin develops, as well as recognition of the conditions that can lead to inadvertent stalls. This was the conclusion of the General Aviation Pilot Stall Awareness Training Study.

Although the NTSB recommended in 1972 that the FAA evaluate the feasibility of requiring at least minimal spin training of all pilot applicants, the NTSB's statistics indicate that most spin accidents occur at altitudes too low for spin recovery to be effected. The 1972 NTSB Special Study, General Aviation Stall/Spin Accidents 1967-69, found that of 1,261 stall/spin accidents during that 3 year period, 60 percent occurred. during takeoff or landing. Of the remaining 40 percent, most were related to acrobatics or low-level flight from which recovery from a fully developed spin would have been unlikely. Only about 7 percent were associated with cruise flight.

Thus, based on the 1976 FAA study and accident trends, this final rule does not require spin training at any certificate level other than flight instructor. The amendments incorporate into the regulation the types of training found to be most effective by the General Aviation Pilot Stall Awareness Training Study, namely, slow flight with realistic distractions and additional ground training in the subject of stalls and spins, in addition to current training in stall recognition and recovery. In conjunction with the issuance of this rule, the FAA is preparing Advisory Circular No. 61-67B: "Stall Awareness and Spin Training" to clarify the additional stall and spin awareness training and to ensure that the contents of the General Aviation Pilot Stall Awareness Training Study, including the complete list of realistic distractions cited in that study, are made available to all pilots and pilot training schools. Additional requirements for flight instructors are discussed in the following section.

As stated in the NPRM, the rule changes affect Secs. 61.105 and 61.125, aeronautical knowledge requirements for private and commercial pilot applicants. Sections 61.107 and 61.127, "flight proficiency requirements" are also affected. The new requirements will also be incorporated into pilot certification under part 141, including appendix A, Private Pilot Certification Course (Airplanes), and appendix D, Commercial Pilot Certification Course (Airplanes). And, even though the proposed amendments in the NPRM referred to private and commercial pilot training, this final rule contains additional amendments to include recreational pilot training. Accordingly, additional amendments are contained here, affecting subpart C, Student and Recreational Pilots, Secs. 61.97 and 61.98. This is in keeping with the spirit and intent of the proposed amendments to emphasize the importance of increased stall and spin awareness and training for all airplane and glider pilots.

One such amendment includes the deletion of the word "critically" in Sec. 61.98(a)(5) as applied to slow airspeeds in recreational pilot flight proficiency requirements. This was done for purposes of consistency. Eliminating the word "critically" leaves the selection of airspeed, below cruise, to the examiner's discretion for safely testing proficiency of training in this area.

(b) Spin Training for Flight Instructors

The other 2 stall/spin proposals presented in the NPRM concerned satisfactory demonstration of spin entry, spins, and spin recovery by flight instructor-airplane and flight instructor glider candidates. NPRM No. 89-14 proposed a requirement for a logbook endorsement for flight instructor airplane and flight instructor glider candidates that states the candidates received training in spin entry, spins, and spin recovery techniques and demonstrated satisfactory proficiency in those maneuvers. At the discretion of the FAA Inspector or Designated Pilot Examiner conducting the practical test, they may accept the logbook endorsement in lieu of an actual demonstration of spin entry, spins, and spin recovery maneuver on the practical test. The FAA also proposed in Notice No. 89-14 that flight instructor airplane and flight instructor glider candidates who fail the practical test due to unsatisfactory knowledge of stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery techniques would be required to bring an aircraft to the retest that is certificated for spins. The candidate would then be required during the retest to demonstrate satisfactory knowledge and skills on stall awareness, spin entry, spins, or spin recovery techniques.

Eighteen comments were received on the issue of spin training for flight instructors. All favored the requirement for a logbook endorsement showing that flight instructor candidates have received spin entry and recovery training. AOPA also favored continued discretion for inspectors conducting examinations, an FAA policy that will be maintained.

The FAA agrees with SSA's comment that any applicant seeking flight instructor certification in any airplane or glider class should be required to receive spin training. However, SSA also noted that proposed Sec. 61.183(e) did not require spin training to be performed in the aircraft category in which the applicant seeks flight instructor certification. This would have allowed a flight instructor glider applicant to receive required spin training in airplanes without holding an airplane category rating, as long as the flight instructor providing the training was appropriately certificated and rated in gliders as well as in airplanes. SSA also commented on the reference in Sec. 61.183(e) to "an applicant for a flight instructor-airplane single-engine land." SSA said it noted no provision in Sec. 61.5(c)(2) for the inclusion of "land" or "sea" on the flight instructor certificate, and stated that any applicant seeking flight instructor certification in any airplane class or in gliders should be required to receive spin training.

Twenty-three comments were received on the issue of flight instructor candidates demonstrating spins on the retest if the candidate failed the practical test due to deficiencies of knowledge or skills relating to stall and spin awareness. Seventeen commenters favored this amendment and 6 opposed it. ERAU stated that additional instruction and practice in spins with properly logged documentation of the instruction would be more appropriate than requiring a spin demonstration on the retest for flight instructor certification. Other commenters opposed to the amendment cited the limited number of spinable aircraft available and the additional burden of requiring more than one aircraft on the practical test in some cases. The FAA believes that the additional burden of locating a spinable aircraft and requiring more than one aircraft on the practical test in some cases, will be justified by improved safety and assurance that all flight instructors are competent and knowledgeable in the subject of spin entry and recovery. Most commenters appeared to recognize the importance of flight instructor skill and knowledge in the area of stalls and spins.

This rule amends Secs. 61.49, 61.183, and 61.187 to require that applicants for flight instructor certificates, airplane and glider, present a logbook endorsement of spin training, and to require a mandatory demonstration of spins on a retest for flight instructor certification if a candidate for the aforementioned certificates failed either the oral or flight portion of the practical test due to deficiencies in stall/spin awareness and associated procedures and techniques. The examiner has the option of requiring spins on the initial flight test and retains discretion to require a spinable aircraft for that test. Thus, while the FAA intends that spin demonstration still may be required on the initial flight instructor test, airplane or glider, a demonstration of spin entry and recovery will be required on the flight instructor retest if the candidate failed because of deficiencies in knowledge or skill related to stalls or spins.

It is the intent of the FAA to ensure that all glider and airplane flight instructors can safely recognize and recover from spins. This will require the applicant to initiate the entry into the spin maneuver, complete at least one full turn (360 degrees of rotation), and recover using acceptable FAA standards.

This final rule includes several minor changes to Secs. 61.183(e) and 61.187 as proposed in the NPRM that clarify the intent of the rule. The rule specifically requires flight instructor applicants, airplane and glider, to have accomplished spin training in an aircraft of the appropriate category that is certificated for spins. Multiengine airplanes may be used for this required spin training by multiengine flight instructor-airplane applicants, only if the airplane is spin-certificated. Such airplanes exist, but are not common.

Therefore, the FAA has not included a class requirement for spin training, thus allowing multiengine flight instructor-airplane candidates to receive their spin training in single-engine, spin-certificated airplanes. The original proposal in NPRM No. 89-14 would have required only applicants for a flight instructor-airplane single-engine land or flight instructor glider certificate to present the logbook endorsement from an appropriately certificated and rated flight instructor. Under that proposal, an applicant for a flight instructor certificate intending to take the practical test in a multiengine airplane, having never accomplished a previous flight instructor practical test in a single-engine airplane, conceivably might have by-passed this requirement. This final rule is, therefore, clarified to reflect the FAA's intention that the required logbook endorsement reflect spin training in the category in which the applicant seeks certification. These modifications respond to the comments and queries from SSA cited earlier. "Single-engine land" has been eliminated from Secs. 61.49(b) and 61.183(e) and replaced with "in an aircraft of the appropriate category that is certificated for spins." This clause was also added to proposed Sec. 61.187. The endorsement must certify that the flight instructor has given the applicant training in spin entry, spin, and spin recovery in an aircraft of the appropriate category that is certificated for spins and has found the applicant competent and proficient in those training areas.

In Sec. 61.183(e) the word "those" was changed to "all" in describing the items in which instruction is required by Sec. 61.187. This modification eliminates any ambiguity about which items are required for flight instructor training. For certification purposes, however, it is the FAA's intention to maintain the current policy of allowing examiner discretion on the practical test with regard to spin demonstration. Section 61.183 has been amended to make this policy clear in the regulation.
==============================
 
Perhaps "needless to say" for some. But you need to explain it to me.

Care to mention a couple of the "many situations situations that call for spins"? Since there are so many of them, limit your answer to those where there's a good chance of recovery. I'm basically just a weekend pilot but so far I haven't come across any. I really want to know why I should not have been operating an aircraft until I got my CFI spin training.

"A good chance of recovery"-What's the point of learning stalls? So we can practice at ten thousand feet for no good reason?

..maybe there is method to the madness..

I could give examples, however it would not fit the criteria of "a good chance of recovery" so I will limit myself as suggested. Stick to what you know for I cannot meet your demands =)
 
Maybe it doesn't help that we're training in airplanes that either aren't certified for spins or they don't even spin reliably when you're trying to spin it?

I read a NASA report one time (which I can't find right now) that said when loaded in the Utility category even test pilots couldn't get the thing to spin a significant number of the times they tried. There's also a NASA report from the 70s that said the 172 would tend to spiral out of a spin around 2.5 to 3 turns.

Rich Stowell has some good information on the NASA test in his book "Stall/Spin Awareness".
I think part of the problem is that CFIs don't understand the aerodynamics and the importance of loading/operating the airplane correctly. There are some airplanes where it even comes down to where you have the seat set. Too far aft and you may not be able to recover. Sometimes you can get away with spinning an airplane not certified for spins and I've even known some pilots who do this. Unfortunately, sometimes you can't.
 
Wow, there are numerous directions this thread could head in.

With regard to CFI spin training...I don't think CFIs, as a whole, industry-wide, will get proficient at spins until it is required to actually demo spins during the CFI checkride.

As the system stands now, it encourages corner cutting when it comes to spin training. There is no verification of anything. Therefore, there is no incentive to become truly proficient. It's cheaper, easier, and less time consuming to do a single flight, get the endorsement, and move on. For the CFI giving the spin training, there is virtually no consequence for giving inadequate training. With other endorsements, like, say, the complex endorsement, if the pilot lands gear up shortly after training, the CFI could have consequences if they didn't give good training...not so when it comes to spins.

How many pilots would be proficient in soft field operations if they weren't tested over it on the checkride? My guess is, unless the pilot specifically wanted to use grass/dirt strips, most CFIs would gloss over soft field ops in favor of getting the client through training faster and cheaper. Anyone can talk their way through a soft field takeoff, but performing one is a different game. They may or may not be proficient. Same with spins.

Now, the level of proficiency CFIs need to have with spins is debatable. But I don't expect anything to change until the testing requirements are changed.

That or make the requirement more specific. To me the endorsement is pretty clear- you must demonstrate instructional competency in the stall/spin maneuvers. Not be shown one or two spins, but demonstrate instructional competency both on the ground and in flight. I've heard of some schools that even get around doing a flight portion. They only do ground and sign off the CFI applicant.
The easiest way to fix it that I see is what you mention- if a CFI is involved in a stall/spin accident, check his/her endorsement. If it is recent, see what kind of training was done and hold the endorsing CFI accountable if the training was weak.
 
The usual arguments about spin training aside, the history of training requirements has been interesting. It also suggests that even when spin training was required, CFIs were not proficient it them.

I read through what you pasted from the federal register, and I see what you're saying, but I think my point is still valid...without adequate testing, CFIs will not improve.

Back in the day with higher numbers of instructional spin accidents, maybe there were other flaws in the testing system. Maybe examiners were being too lenient in the tests. Maybe the instructional techniques of the day were inadequate (such as entering intentional spins at too low of an altitude). Maybe instructors were being too nonchalant about how serious spins are. I don't know.

And even if these instructional problems are reduced, I'm not sure if the total number of spin accidents will be reduced.

But I'm quite certain that CFI understanding of spins will not change until testing requirements are increased. Why would they? As it stands now, there is virtually zero incentive for a CFI to have in-depth spin training, other than their personal desire to.
 
That or make the requirement more specific. To me the endorsement is pretty clear- you must demonstrate instructional competency in the stall/spin maneuvers. Not be shown one or two spins, but demonstrate instructional competency both on the ground and in flight. I've heard of some schools that even get around doing a flight portion. They only do ground and sign off the CFI applicant.

The thing is, the regulation is written fine. It's a great requirement. The problem is that is has become a joke of a regulation. There are no teeth to it, and it's virtually unenforceable. The training given to one CFI applicant could be vastly different from the spin training given to another applicant.

We might as well do away with the flight portion of CFI checkrides. Just do an oral exam and issue the certificate. After all, if the recommending instructor writes an endorsement saying the applicant can fly fine, why not trust him?

Ok, that's an extreme example, but you get the idea. That's how spin training is set up.

The easiest way to fix it that I see is what you mention- if a CFI is involved in a stall/spin accident, check his/her endorsement. If it is recent, see what kind of training was done and hold the endorsing CFI accountable if the training was weak.

I agree, but the number of CFIs involved in stall/spin accidents shortly after receiving training is an incredibly small number. Investigating the endorsing CFI's training in those specific cases is a good idea, but I don't think it would do much to change the skill of CFIs nationwide.
 
Care to mention a couple of the "many situations situations that call for spins"? Since there are so many of them, limit your answer to those where there's a good chance of recovery. I'm basically just a weekend pilot but so far I haven't come across any.

I've had a few inadvertent spins in gliders. But that isn't uncommon - gliders spend most of their time a few knots above stall speed, banked over 30 degrees, in turbulent air.

The sad thing though, I had better spin training for my PPL (it was required way back when) than I did for my CFI endorsement.
 
As the system stands now, it encourages corner cutting when it comes to spin training. There is no verification of anything. Therefore, there is no incentive to become truly proficient. It's cheaper, easier, and less time consuming to do a single flight, get the endorsement, and move on.

:yeahthat:
 
The sad thing though, I had better spin training for my PPL (it was required way back when) than I did for my CFI endorsement.

I've heard that before from some older pilots, and also I *heard* that way back in the day you had to do 3 turns and roll out on a specified heading within 10 degrees. I don't know if that's true or not though.
 
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