Speaking of Regional Pay...
- Thread starter Airdale
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mattp1803
Well-Known Member
Are you serious?!?! Hahaha. Okay so yes, there were/are some bankrupt airlines. These airlines are now emerging bankruptcy and most all of them are now making money again after being restructured. Seriously, I don't know if I could even put a dollar amount on how much airlines have brought to the economy. How many families have traveled to go on vacations and places like Disney World? How many business men/women have traveled all over the country/world every year? I will go out on a limb here and say that airlines have probably brought billions in economy to the United States as a by product. Yes we have had some struggling airlines through out the years, but think how much money is brought to the economy via airline travelers on a daily bases.
I can't stand it when none-pilots call airline pilots bus drivers or truck drivers of the sky. So obsurd. Kind of ironic thought that some bus drivers actually make more than some pilots. Sad.
I think the general public just has absolutely no idea the knowledge and experience pilots must aquire.
I think the general public just has absolutely no idea the knowledge and experience pilots must aquire.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Excuse me?
It's 2007, not 1964.
A side note: Before I came to Colgan I was on top of my #####. Getting into the Saab simulator I can honestly say it's got to be one of the most stressful, busy cockpits in the world. The regional jets must be a breeze. It's the hardest part of my flight training I've ever done. Our current airline pilots need better compensation for what they do, not just because we transport people and they trust us with their lives. But because of the stress and skill it takes to make it through training and PC's.
Bottom line, as the airlines rebound and the industry begins to trend upward again, pilot groups are in a great position to begin negotiations for better pay and work rules, contracts that can be the new "bar". This starts with Republic who is currently in negotiations at the regional level. I'm dissapointed that the ALPA drive at Colgan failed, but we've got to begin to work with the Colgan Pilot Group to try and make things better NOW.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
Smittey, the Colgan Pilot group is a union busting 101.
They were the main reason we lost the ALPA vote. They are not a collective LEGAL bargaining voice like they say they are. In order to be a legal entity they must be recognized by the NMB. They are not and can't be for at least another 11 months.
During the vote they personally attacked members of the ALPA organizing committee, posted false information, and showed complete lack of professionalism on their website.
Yes they will get us some stuff to try to prevent another ALPA drive, but other than that it is union busting 101.
They were the main reason we lost the ALPA vote. They are not a collective LEGAL bargaining voice like they say they are. In order to be a legal entity they must be recognized by the NMB. They are not and can't be for at least another 11 months.
During the vote they personally attacked members of the ALPA organizing committee, posted false information, and showed complete lack of professionalism on their website.
Yes they will get us some stuff to try to prevent another ALPA drive, but other than that it is union busting 101.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
Yes, I understand that they're not legally recognized like ALPA, but it's all we have to work with right now. Thanks seggy for your efforts in the drive, I just wish new-hires could vote...It would have passed.
With that being said, I guess there is this new push now for Prater to be removed as President of ALPA for disregarding the wishes of the group. There are some nasty allegations about him and his personal agenda. Thats for another time and place though.
killbilly
Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Fortunately this is one point I can speak to.
Segs, respectfully, they think this because they have the 1970s-era model of compensation in their heads. To most of the non-flying public, pilots make $300K a year and work 4 days a month. They simply don't know. And this ignorance is the reason that the general public tends to scoff when they see pilots picketing, because to them airline pilots are a group of whining, overpaid little girls.
When I talk with other pax about travel, they are often shocked to learn that pilots make as little as they do, and why. Hopefully, some of them come away with a little more respect because you're conducting safe flights for such little compensation, not because you're so well paid. There's a certain nobility in doing the job well even if it pays little. Unfortunately, you can't eat nobility.
One final thought to MattP1803's point. I understand that you spent a great deal of money, time and sacrifice to become a pilot.
So did my doctor, my lawyer, the CEO of my company, and any of a number of professions.
Those professions pay what they do because that's what the market allows. I don't pay more for my services because I think they're worth it - I pay because that's what they charge.
In short, pilots and (and to a lesser degree, their unions) are getting what management is willing to pay them. Doesn't matter what you deserve. The economy isn't based on "deserve."
If it was, cops, teachers, soldiers and electricians would be the highest-paid professions in the land.
wheelsup
Well-Known Member
If pilots truly "needed" better compensation pay would go up. Instead, we need unions to artificially raise pay, much like the UAW.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
What over the age 60 thing? That is just a bunch of regional " wannabe tough guy" talk. Once the IACO changed it to 65, it was a matter of time before it was a FAA thing too. The best solution was for ALPA to be an integral part of creating the new law, rather than than to continuing flat out defiance of it, where they would have no part in crafting the new law.
The survey results were published and the largest group wanted ALPA to be an integral part of the age 65 law if it was going to happen. It was happening and ALPA worked with congress to best protect their members.
There is more to the ALPA membership than the "RJ internet bashers"
Seggy
Well-Known Member
To expand further on OldTownPilots post about the age 65 thing...
Age 65 is really, really, really, small peanuts. Yes it sucks it will probably slow things down, BUT I would much rather have them raise the age to 65 as long as ALPA works to prevent Air Rusky flying 30 year old Tuplovs in the states.
Cabotage is the most imporant issue for us down the road. In order for ALPA politically to influence this policy they HAVE to play ball with the age 65 rule.
In a meeting with Prater, Senator Rockefeller from WV, told Prater flat out "...age 65 has my support, you want to talk about Cabotage now?"
What would YOU do? I really don't give a rat's a$$ about the age 65 rule. I don't want Air Rusky flying the routes in the United States though.
Age 65 is really, really, really, small peanuts. Yes it sucks it will probably slow things down, BUT I would much rather have them raise the age to 65 as long as ALPA works to prevent Air Rusky flying 30 year old Tuplovs in the states.
Cabotage is the most imporant issue for us down the road. In order for ALPA politically to influence this policy they HAVE to play ball with the age 65 rule.
In a meeting with Prater, Senator Rockefeller from WV, told Prater flat out "...age 65 has my support, you want to talk about Cabotage now?"
What would YOU do? I really don't give a rat's a$$ about the age 65 rule. I don't want Air Rusky flying the routes in the United States though.
SmitteyB
Well-Known Member
The fact that over 50% of ALPA memebers did not want it to change and he rolled over and didn't fight it according to a DAL CA I was talking to in the PHL airport.
I don't know who to believe.
I don't have a problem with changing Age 60, I DO have a problem when an elected representative disregards the majority of their members wishes. That is irresponsible.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
I'm gonna go ahead and disagree with this one. My paycheck vs my bills say I NEED better compensation. If it were up to management, they'd pay us rock bottom wages, and the guys coming out of JetU would be all over it b/c they get to fly a cool jet. Cops and teachers need and deserve better compensation, yet it's a constant struggle in budget meetings annual to even keep what they have. I don't know where you're getting the if they need it, compensation would go up. In order for that to happen, we'd have to eliminate all the glossy ads that prey on people's perceptions that it's still the 1960s and airline pilots are gods.
The problem at the regional level is we're getting squeezed at both ends. Even though we fly roughly similar equipment to the majors (with the exception of fewer seats in the back) in the same airspace domestically and do approximately the same job, regional management won't pay more than the major partners pay their own pilots for a contracted service. Since pay has been slashed at the majors, it makes it difficult to raise pay at the regionals. At the bottom end of the spectrum, we've got guys entering the regionals with a QUARTER of the experience they had a year or so ago. That makes it tough to justify raising pay at the bottom end. Heck, I can't even come up with a good arguement based on experience for a first year FO outta JetU to make more than $20K. He's already got less experience than a CFI, but making more money. In fact, the CA next to him should make more since pretty much every flight for a while is gonna be an IOE re-hash. I've had CAs complain that they've had to teach instrument ground school while being vectored for an approach.
kellwolf
Piece of Trash
Actually, ALPA's stance was to fight the Age 65 rule. Then they had a "blue ribbon" committee survey pilots and find out what the members wanted. Turns out, from the committee findings, more were for relaxing the age. I took the survey myself, and there was more to it than just "Are you for or against the age 65 rule?" It broke it down into a lot of categories and sub-catagories. It wasn't like Prater said "Eh, I want age 60 gone, so it's leaving." If a lot of pilots didn't participate and then get mad b/c of ALPA's stance, I don't blame the leadership since they can't read minds. Although, I have to say that's pretty damn typical of ALPA pilot groups: failure to participate then get mad when things don't go your way. Too many don't realize that a union is NOT a passive organization. If you want your voice heard, you actually have to open your mouth.
Cruise
Well-Known Member
Smittey, you're right it's all we have....but it's really nothing in the end. What the CPG is an attempt by management to appease the pilots enough to forget about ALPA before next year. If management can show that they're 'working' with the CPG, it improves their position against legal representation. It's just a ploy. Do no fall victim to this tactic.
You know, I continue to extol the virtues of ALPA representation to the crew members I'm around. So what if we have another 11 months, just more time to inform. There will be another ALPA vote next year and we need to remove all doubt as to why we NEED legal representation. I hear what you're saying about the CPG...but they're a toothless puppet of management and have absolutely no legal power to do anything. I'm not a fan or supporter of the CPG and it is in no way a replacement for representation. Continue your support for ALPA representation.
Seggy
Well-Known Member
See my post it WAS going to change. Might as well get on board to influence HOW it was going to change.
Age 60 is small peanuts, the majority of the members don't want to lose their jobs to Air Rusky. This is a much bigger issue. Sometimes you have to lick your wounds and pick your battles wisely.
Prater is doing the right thing here.
OldTownPilot
Well-Known Member
As far as that goes there is a great book out there called "how to lie with statistics".
There was a survey option that was along the lines of "I don't support 65 BUT if its going to happen I want ALPA actively involved in the rule making process" That one got like 30% of the vote.
Like mark says Age 65 really is a little deal in the big scheme of things. It keeps American pilots flying domestic segments. Pilots really should be more concerned with foreign ownership and cabotage with this administration. "Chechen air's MEL ridden duct-tapped seven-two-skis" have no business flying domestic segments in the US.
This kinda ties up with the Comair thread. Its all about leverage, sometime you have to lose some battles to win the war.
BobDDuck
Island Bus Driver
I wish I could find the actual survey questions they used. I took it over the phone and I remember the big question they asked had to do with IF ALPA saw that it was probably going to pass should they change their stance to support it so they could be part of the implementation of age 65. It was one of the most poorly worded surveys I have EVERY seen. Maybe if I had it in written form it wouldn't have been so bad but I had to ask the lady doing the phone survey to repeat the question 3 times (and it took about 2 minutes each time) just so I could figure out what they were asking. If you look at the results to the survey, the majority of ALPA pilots did NOT support age 65, however, the major of ALPA pilots DID support ALPA backing age 65 *if* it was going to be implemented anyways. Sort of a "be on the winning team" thing. I do feel that ALPA did just that, however, I think they jumped on the bandwagon while there was still some possibility that Age 65 would be turned down. In that sense, I think they did cave a bit, but in the end they did do what the membership wanted.