South Carolina Lear Crash Question

Hacker15e

Dunning–Kruger Observer
The NTSB has indicated the Lear that crashed on takeoff last week in SC may have had a blown tire on takeoff. The crew may have decided to abort the takeoff as a result, leading to the aircraft running off the end of the runway.

My question for Lear drivers here is, what are the Lear procedures (or rules of thumb) regarding aborting with a blown tire?

In the F-15 and T-38 there is a much higher risk associated with a high speed abort with a blown tire than there is with a heavyweight takeoff with a blown tire. We use 100 knots as a decision point -- if it happens below 100 knots, we'll abort the takeoff and accept the risk of the abort with a blown tire. Above 100, we'll continue the takeoff (usually regardless of the damage done by the tire breakup, to include an engine fire or FODding out) and deal with a heavyweight landing instead.

Is there such a consideration with the Lear?

EDIT: For some additional discussion, the first piece of blown tire was apparently found 2,800 feet down the runway (source: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6407552). I don't know what the typical Lear 60 takeoff performance is, but in the F-15 that's into the rotation phase and within a couple hundred feet of being airborne. In my jet, that would mean the blown tire happened well after the rule of thumb, and the decision would have been to continue the takeoff.

Can a Lear dude provide any additional insight as to this type of situation?
 

400A

New Member
I can't speak to the Lear, but every airplane (jet) I have flown has been the same, blow a tire, no biggie go fly and comeback for an abnormal landing. That being said, I have never had a tire blow on take off, once on landing and that was no big deal. I can't imagine it being too much different in terms of how the airplane reacted.
 

aloft

New Member
I don't know what the typical Lear 60 takeoff performance is, but in the F-15 that's into the rotation phase and within a couple hundred feet of being airborne.
I may be out in left field, but I don't think the Lear has quite the acceleration of the Mudhen.
 

fsiflyer

Well-Known Member
The NTSB has indicated the Lear that crashed on takeoff last week in SC may have had a blown tire on takeoff. The crew may have decided to abort the takeoff as a result, leading to the aircraft running off the end of the runway.

My question for Lear drivers here is, what are the Lear procedures (or rules of thumb) regarding aborting with a blown tire?

In the F-15 and T-38 there is a much higher risk associated with a high speed abort with a blown tire than there is with a heavyweight takeoff with a blown tire. We use 100 knots as a decision point -- if it happens below 100 knots, we'll abort the takeoff and accept the risk of the abort with a blown tire. Above 100, we'll continue the takeoff (usually regardless of the damage done by the tire breakup, to include an engine fire or FODding out) and deal with a heavyweight landing instead.

Is there such a consideration with the Lear?

EDIT: For some additional discussion, the first piece of blown tire was apparently found 2,800 feet down the runway (source: http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=news/entertainment&id=6407552). I don't know what the typical Lear 60 takeoff performance is, but in the F-15 that's into the rotation phase and within a couple hundred feet of being airborne. In my jet, that would mean the blown tire happened well after the rule of thumb, and the decision would have been to continue the takeoff.

Can a Lear dude provide any additional insight as to this type of situation?
I have had a real life abort in a Lear 60 about two years ago. Let me tell you it is a bit scary. Stone Cold on here has seen pictures so he knows what I am talking about. The Lear 60 is a powerful airplane and one if its biggest problems are the very small tires on it. They really are underdesigned for an airplane so powerful. We blew the left mains at a high speed. When it happened we aborted for the aircrafts inability to fly not the blown tire. When the tires blew it really blew off the left main gear assembly. We were skidding down the runway on a stub digging into runway. Our airspeed was decreasing slightly due to the drag of the stub carving into the runway, and also the left wing dropped and we knew damage was being done, so we both immediatly made the decision to abort. Know that this was a split second decision that could have gone either way. There was no time to lose as action had to be immediate. After we stopped, there was damage to the wing and the flap and there was just the stub on the left side. Had we tried to take off, even using 80 or even 100 knots as a rule of thumb, we probably would not have made it. If we did, the landing could have proved to be very dangerous. After it was all said and done with, we were credited by governing bodies and the aircraft manufacturer of doing the right thing of aborting in this situation. The chances that we would have gotten airborne were very slim.

I don't know what exactly happened with this 60 in SC. I can't know what the pilots were thinking. I'm sure they are listening to the CVR. Ours was also pulled and it was wierd listening to ourselves. One thing I can say is Flight Safety training comes into its own and our voices were calm and collected. Immediate action items were carried out and at no time was anything rushed or was someone "losing it". I can only assume it was the same in that cockpit. Since we know that the Lear 60 has poor tires that probably affected their decision to abort is my speculation. May they RIP and hopefully we can learn from this accident.
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
A very good question, and very specific to training in the Lear 60. There are 2 WOW switches, one on each main gear of the LR-60. If either one is disabled, the airplane considers itself in AIR mode. You lose your TR's, Brakes, Antiskid, and Spoilers. The only way you have of stopping the airplane is Pneumatic emergency brakes. It is a very scary situation if you blow a tire and it does damage to the Squat switch.

According to the reports I've read, they did try aborting, probably around 100Kts or so, especially at that distance. Why they decided to abort, I don't know. We'll have to wait for the NTSB report and see if there were other circumstances to cause them to abort.

During training, and for every pre-takeoff brief, the only reasons to abort above 80 Kts are engine fire, engine failure, loss of directional control, or TR deployment. Anything else, we go flying. Now, in fsiflyers case, I would believe the loss of directional control came into effect. With this crash a/c I don't know why they aborted. They were calm on the radio, according to reports and knew they were going off the end of the runway, and made a radio transmission as such.

I am very eager to hear exactly what was said during the abort, and what made them do it. Also, how did they brief the takeoff. It is a very sad and tragic accident that has educated a few LR-60 pilots on some other forums of exactly what you could be facing if catstrophic gear damage is done to the airplane.

I am not meaning to speculate in any way on what happened to this a/c. This is purely a general education on the LR-60, as related to the question asked. As I said, I am very eager to hear what happened and will await the NTSB reports before other comments are made in regard to this partcular accident.

RIP to those killed and prayers to those who survived, and the families of all.

PS Allen, did you end up having TR's, Spoilers, etc. during your abort? Just curious...
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
I may be out in left field, but I don't think the Lear has quite the acceleration of the Mudhen.
They were loaded with 4 pax and fuel to go to Cali, but the 60 is very powerful. I'd bet they were expecting a t/o roll of under 4000'. If it's a light 60, you can be rotating in 2800', easily.
 

stuckingfk

Well-Known Member
From the Lear 60 drivers here, are the brakes as bad as everyone says they are?

I've known a couple pilots to fly them and they say two things. Poorly designed wing and the whole gear assembly stinks.

Anything to add...
 

Stone Cold

Well-Known Member
From the Lear 60 drivers here, are the brakes as bad as everyone says they are?

I've known a couple pilots to fly them and they say two things. Poorly designed wing and the whole gear assembly stinks.

Anything to add...
The lav sucks also. Other than that, a great airplane. I love the power, and everything about the type, other than brakes/gear, wings need to be redesigned to be able to use all the power, and the lav.

Yes, the brakes SUCK!!!!!
 

fsiflyer

Well-Known Member
The lav sucks also. Other than that, a great airplane. I love the power, and everything about the type, other than brakes/gear, wings need to be redesigned to be able to use all the power, and the lav.

Yes, the brakes SUCK!!!!!
I second everything he says!
 

Jimmy_Norton

Opie killer
I have had a real life abort in a Lear 60 about two years ago. Let me tell you it is a bit scary. Stone Cold on here has seen pictures so he knows what I am talking about. The Lear 60 is a powerful airplane and one if its biggest problems are the very small tires on it. They really are underdesigned for an airplane so powerful. We blew the left mains at a high speed. When it happened we aborted for the aircrafts inability to fly not the blown tire. When the tires blew it really blew off the left main gear assembly. We were skidding down the runway on a stub digging into runway. Our airspeed was decreasing slightly due to the drag of the stub carving into the runway, and also the left wing dropped and we knew damage was being done, so we both immediatly made the decision to abort. Know that this was a split second decision that could have gone either way. There was no time to lose as action had to be immediate. After we stopped, there was damage to the wing and the flap and there was just the stub on the left side. Had we tried to take off, even using 80 or even 100 knots as a rule of thumb, we probably would not have made it. If we did, the landing could have proved to be very dangerous. After it was all said and done with, we were credited by governing bodies and the aircraft manufacturer of doing the right thing of aborting in this situation. The chances that we would have gotten airborne were very slim.

I don't know what exactly happened with this 60 in SC. I can't know what the pilots were thinking. I'm sure they are listening to the CVR. Ours was also pulled and it was wierd listening to ourselves. One thing I can say is Flight Safety training comes into its own and our voices were calm and collected. Immediate action items were carried out and at no time was anything rushed or was someone "losing it". I can only assume it was the same in that cockpit. Since we know that the Lear 60 has poor tires that probably affected their decision to abort is my speculation. May they RIP and hopefully we can learn from this accident.
How long did it take you to stop? How fast were you going when you had the tire failure?

There is a very long thread at Propilotworld about this accident, and both the abort and the go people have very good points. It seems like you could be screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

Thanks
 

fsiflyer

Well-Known Member
How long did it take you to stop? How fast were you going when you had the tire failure?

There is a very long thread at Propilotworld about this accident, and both the abort and the go people have very good points. It seems like you could be screwed if you do, screwed if you don't.

Thanks
It took us the entire runway to stop. We were about 15 knots below V1 when it happened. Yes, in this airplane every situation demands a different response. It is very hard to have a steadfast rule of thumb. Like I said earlier, we aborted for the loss of directional control not the blown tire. In the beginning we did not really know what was going on just the airplane did not want to go fly.
 

Jimmy_Norton

Opie killer
It took us the entire runway to stop. We were about 15 knots below V1 when it happened. Yes, in this airplane every situation demands a different response. It is very hard to have a steadfast rule of thumb. Like I said earlier, we aborted for the loss of directional control not the blown tire. In the beginning we did not really know what was going on just the airplane did not want to go fly.
How long was the runway?
 

Number1atNumber2

Tries to keep it fun.
It took us the entire runway to stop. We were about 15 knots below V1 when it happened. Yes, in this airplane every situation demands a different response. It is very hard to have a steadfast rule of thumb. Like I said earlier, we aborted for the loss of directional control not the blown tire. In the beginning we did not really know what was going on just the airplane did not want to go fly.

Wow, that's very interesting to hear. Where you guys heavy that day?

Supposedly Lear fixed the brake issues with the 45s, and with the new 85s comming out.
 
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