Solo Endorsement

[Joestructor]

Hello all,

I have a student wanting to solo in a Cessna 172 N-model aircraft. The instructor that initially signed their certificate put "Cessna 172-S" Does this specific "make and model of aircraft to be flown" carry over to whether it is an N-model, P-model, or S-model... etc. Cessna 172? So would I have to do all of the pre-solo flight training in a C172N for that student to solo in it?

From my interpretation of the regulations, this is how it should be. But I have never seen an instructor actually put the "S", "N", or "P" model for the Cessna. I've only seen, "Cessna 172".

Thanks for any help. I'm new to this whole CFI thing

Joe

 

[Ayork62493]

They are different horsepower ratings.. I know when I was signed off, I don't that it made that much of a difference. However, if one is fuel injected and one is carbuerated, which the N is I would say he needs a seperate signoff. I'm no CFI, but... that would be my interpretation of the rules.

 

[Joestructor]

They are different horsepower ratings.. I know when I was signed off, I don't that it made that much of a difference. However, if one is fuel injected and one is carbuerated, which the N is I would say he needs a seperate signoff. I'm no CFI, but... that would be my interpretation of the rules.

Very true. In 61.87(n)(1) it states "An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown."

I'm just not sure how "specific" they intend to be by saying "specific make and model". Plain and simple though it's very up-front.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

They are different horsepower ratings.. I know when I was signed off, I don't that it made that much of a difference. However, if one is fuel injected and one is carbuerated, which the N is I would say he needs a seperate signoff. I'm no CFI, but... that would be my interpretation of the rules.

Very true. In 61.87(n)(1) it states "An endorsement from an authorized instructor on his or her student pilot certificate for the specific make and model aircraft to be flown."

I'm just not sure how "specific" they intend to be by saying "specific make and model". Plain and simple though it's very up-front.

I started in a 172P, but did the cross country phase and my checkride in a 172S. My CFI did two separate endorsements, which my DPE said were unnecessary - that "172" was simply good enough.

Now, this was a few years back, from a DPE (a very experienced one, but still a Designee and not a G-man). So I would ask.

 

[tgrayson]

But I have never seen an instructor actually put the "S", "N", or "P" model for the Cessna. I've only seen, "Cessna 172".

The old Part 61 FAQs that used to be published by the FAA said that no separate signoffs were need for the variations with a particular model.

 

[pilot1278]

Well, you're talking about a newer vs. older aircraft. The S model I believe is fuel-injected while the "N" model is not. If this student is not up to speed on carbuerators, manual primers and carb icing/carb heat, there could be some very bad things that could happen.

While no separate endorsement is necessary, I would do a systems ground and 1 or 2 flights to make sure that student knows what he or she is doing before letting them loose.

 

[Guy]

The endorsement in the logbook can add restrictions, and if that is the intention of the CFI, it would be wise to be specific in that restriction. As the endorsing instructor, you can limit the endorsement down to a specific aircraft and be fully justified in doing so.

 

[Joestructor]

The endorsement in the logbook can add restrictions, and if that is the intention of the CFI, it would be wise to be specific in that restriction. As the endorsing instructor, you can limit the endorsement down to a specific aircraft and be fully justified in doing so.

Yeah I didn't think about it like that. Thanks everyone for the advice!

 

[nosehair]

"Make" is Cessna,
"Model" is 172

any numbers that follow are "Series", they do not have to be included in an endorsement, however, a significant series difference should be included in the pre-solo knowledge test. Individual knowledge tests for different aircraft, and different airport procedures when signed off for other airports.

Putting a series number after a model number restricts the student to that exact series only.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

"Make" is Cessna,
"Model" is 172

any numbers that follow are "Series", they do not have to be included in an endorsement, however, a significant series difference should be included in the pre-solo knowledge test. Individual knowledge tests for different aircraft, and different airport procedures when signed off for other airports.

Putting a series number after a model number restricts the student to that exact series only.

Agree with both points. The student's previous instructor did designate the S model. That may have been intentionally restrictive (no experience with carbureted engines) or unintentional (just didn't know better). Either way, since you (and the FAA) can only reed what's there, I'd add a new endorsement.

 

[Joestructor]

"Make" is Cessna,
"Model" is 172

any numbers that follow are "Series", they do not have to be included in an endorsement, however, a significant series difference should be included in the pre-solo knowledge test. Individual knowledge tests for different aircraft, and different airport procedures when signed off for other airports.

Putting a series number after a model number restricts the student to that exact series only.

Thanks for clarifying that for me. I appreciate it!

 

[R Banger]

"Make" is Cessna,
"Model" is 172

any numbers that follow are "Series", they do not have to be included in an endorsement, however, a significant series difference should be included in the pre-solo knowledge test. Individual knowledge tests for different aircraft, and different airport procedures when signed off for other airports.

Putting a series number after a model number restricts the student to that exact series only.

This is correct. I instruct out of both and designate the series of aircraft to be used. Like others have said some students need to learn more about flying the carbed planes. Also the N models have the 40 degrees of flaps which can put an inexperienced student pilot in a bad place if they have to go around on a high density altitude day if all they have used is the S models. This might be just me though.

 

[Droopy22]

This is correct. I instruct out of both and designate the series of aircraft to be used. Like others have said some students need to learn more about flying the carbed planes. Also the N models have the 40 degrees of flaps which can put an inexperienced student pilot in a bad place if they have to go around on a high density altitude day if all they have used is the S models. This might be just me though.

Totally is just you. N models suck. If you want 40 degrees, go to the 182 or something else with the power to climb with 40 in.

P.S. I think you need to change your avatar to say 4DX now...

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Totally is just you. N models suck. If you want 40 degrees, go to the 182 or something else with the power to climb with 40 in.

P.S. I think you need to change your avatar to say 4DX now...

I've flown some 172Ps that won't climb (or will just barely climb) at 30...in before "pilot problem." Go-around thrust, flaps to takeoff... I'd love to fly an N, though....bet it stops on a dime.