Slow to 250 at XXX

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
OK quick question here, maybe I am reading too much into it. All hypothetical of course.

Given a speed assignment of 310 knots on the Korry 3 into LGA.

Around halfway thru the arrival you are told:

"At Brand reduce speed to 250 knots" or "Slow to 250 knots at BRAND", one or the other, I can't remember the exact wording.

I would take this to mean keep 310 until BRAND and then slow there.

I've only heard ATC give speed restrictions in regards to "cross BRAND at 250 knots". That is pretty self explanatory. I've never heard this clearance before.

Thoughts? Way off base here? Just something I hypothetically hadn't encountered yet.
 

surreal1221

Well-Known Member
Slow to 250kts AT BRAND. . .

Reaching BRAND, commence a speed reduction to 250kts.

At least that's how I'd roll. Now, like you, I've never encountered such. I'd certainly like to know if I'm off base as well.

Recalling from my now three year old air traffic background that if you wanted someone to maintain their present speed til AFTER a fix, the phraseology above (Slow to 250kts at BRAND) would be utilized.

If you want them at a speed PRIOR to reaching a fix, the "Cross XXXXX at ___kts" phraseology is utilized.

edit: I'm whipping out and dusting off an old version of the 7110.65 right now to check - Well, I'm not having much luck finding anything really regarding slowing AT a fix in the .65, speed adjustments are discussed but no example provides a Reduce to 250kts AT XXXXX example.

Perhaps out very own ATLTRACON can chime in?
 

SpiraMirabilis

Possible Subversive
I've heard approach say 'Reaching LANDR reduce speed to 210 kts'. I'm not sure if this is standard phraseology but everyone knows what to do.
 

aviatorzz

New Member
Just by taking a quick look at the STAR, it shows that the aircraft is transitioning from 11,000 feet at BRAND to 10,000 feet at KORRY. The aircraft is slowing to the designated speed for flights under 10,000 feet (250kts) once passing thru BRAND, because there is only 5 miles between BRAND and KORRY.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0811/00289KORRY.PDF
 

CaptBill

Well-Known Member
Just by taking a quick look at the STAR, it shows that the aircraft is transitioning from 11,000 feet at BRAND to 10,000 feet at KORRY. The aircraft is slowing to the designated speed for flights under 10,000 feet (250kts) once passing thru BRAND, because there is only 5 miles between BRAND and KORRY.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0811/00289KORRY.PDF

If you are transitioning at 310 knots, there is no requirement to pass Korry at 250 knots unless you are told to do so. Of course when you descend below 10 you need to be slowed. I have come to see this clearance as the controller saying he will be descending me below 10 sooner than later so go go ahead and get slowed up. This may be the case if they are landing north or they have a line of aircraft they are trying to get spacing on.
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
Just by taking a quick look at the STAR, it shows that the aircraft is transitioning from 11,000 feet at BRAND to 10,000 feet at KORRY. The aircraft is slowing to the designated speed for flights under 10,000 feet (250kts) once passing thru BRAND, because there is only 5 miles between BRAND and KORRY.

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0811/00289KORRY.PDF
No it had nothing to do with ATC slowing us to 250 to get us down below 10, ATC never does that. We do it on our own.

Anyway sounds like everyone is pretty much in agreement, the CA was upset a bit when I didn't slow until BRAND; I just don't think him, I, and ATC were on the same page. It was good that it happened, now I will make the other pilot ask ATC explicitly whether they want us to cross BRAND at 250 or cross it at our current speed then slow. :bandit:
 

Juliet Lima

New Member
if the controller wanted u to already be at 250kts AT brand then he used a poor choice of words. if he wanted that he should've said something like

"cross BRAND at 250 knots"

i think were all pretty much in agreement. as wheelsup mentioned, if there is ever any doubt what we want from u then question us to verify. no harm in that.
 

mikecweb

Well-Known Member
I have a question for ya.
After you crossed the fix did you reduce the power to a power setting that would give you 250kts or did you reduce it more to slow quickly?
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
Yes I agree a cross restriction is what is normally given, just second guessing myself after the CA said something.
 

wheelsup

Well-Known Member
I have a question for ya.
After you crossed the fix did you reduce the power to a power setting that would give you 250kts or did you reduce it more to slow quickly?
I dove to make BRAND at 11 and then reduced the decent to the minimum required to make KORRY at 10 and pulled it to idle.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
These days, I type "250/" and press the line-select key next to the fix on the right, press "VNAV" and select "FMS Speeds", I think . . .

No, that'll make me cross the fix at that speed.

So, maybe I could make a waypoint 6 miles past the point, and set that one at 250. Then put "250/" next to the first point. Press VNAV and select FMS speeds.

Yeah, that's the really easy way to do it . . .

As long as I've pressed the AT button, it'll figure out the rest.
 
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