Simulated Engine Out - NTSB Report

JEP

Malko In Charge
Staff member
I read this and it seems rather unusual that the simulation ended so close to the ground. How do the other CFI's here practice the situation? Here are a couple of quotes and the link to the article.
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http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20031201X01972&key=1
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The CFI stated that he last cleared the engine about 1,000 feet agl. During this event, the engine's speed increased to approximately 2,000 rpm for a few seconds. Nothing unusual was noted, and the CFI continued allowing the airplane to descend toward the dry wash area that he had pointed out to the student. When the airplane was over the site, about 100 feet agl, the CFI directed the student to terminate the approach by initiating a go-around. The student advanced the engine's throttle, but no increase in engine rpm was noted. The CFI did not indicate that he attempted to speak with or take over the airplane's controls from the student. The student pulled the yoke aft, the airplane stalled, and the left wing impacted the ground with the wing flaps extended to 10 degrees. Thereafter, the airplane touched down hard in the dry wash, the nose gear collapsed, and the emergency locator beacon activated.
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The student stated that the CFI immediately pushed the carburetor heat control forward to the "off" position and stated that its use was not necessary. During the descent, the CFI cleared the engine two or three times. The student stated that as the airplane proceeded straight toward the simulated forced landing site, he extended the wing flaps to the 30-degree position. Upon descending to about 350 or 400 feet agl, the student applied engine power to terminate the simulation and commence the go-around. At this time, the CFI took over the flight and engine controls, and he retarded the throttle thereby returning the engine to idle. Following this action, the CFI stated "we need to bring it down to within 20 feet" agl. The student stated that at no time during the subsequent
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EDUC8-or

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The student stated that the CFI immediately pushed the carburetor heat control forward to the "off" position and stated that its use was not necessary.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oops!

[ QUOTE ]
the CFI stated "we need to bring it down to within 20 feet" agl.

[/ QUOTE ]

Double Oops!!

I have my students terminate at 500' AGL (unless we're over an airport.) It's in the FAR's. No carb heat? That's just stupid. What could cause your "simulated" engine failure? Carb ice could definitely be one thing. And it's not going away after 3 seconds of carb heat. Leave it on until you go around.
 

Acadia

Well-Known Member
I was trained to go no lower than 500' AGL for simulated engine out practice unless you are over an actual runway. I have the same rule for doing this with my students. A: Makes sure you dont blow 91.119(c) B: Gives you a reasonable safety buffer from events like what happened to this CFI.


[ QUOTE ]
The president of the company that operated the airplane reported to the Safety Board investigator that, prior to departure, there were no outstanding squawks or maintenance issues with the airplane. The president indicated that company policy requires engine out simulations, such as the one that was performed by the CFI, to be terminated no lower than 500 feet agl. Also, there should always be a suitable field nearby in the event that a forced landing becomes necessary if engine power is not reacquired during the maneuver.


[/ QUOTE ]
 

I_Money

Moderator
I have had an engine not respond at 200 feet while doing simulated engine failures in the pattern - I had the runway in gliding distance, so after a couple of tries I decided to focus on getting the aircraft down safely.

It was not uncommon a few years ago in the UK to take the plane down to the height where you can see rocks, water troffs, ditches, cows, etc that you would hit that you can no tsee when aborting at 500ft. The people in the countryside have started to complain so you can not get away with that now.
 

FL270

New Member
When instructing I always had my students terminate the simulated engine-out at 500' AGL, unless we were headed for an airport (I liked to pull engines over grass strips and make them land from time to time), which is pretty much everyone's recommended best practice for safety. That said, even when I went around at 500' I would always ask my students two questions ... first, would they have made their intended field and landed safely, and second, was the field a good choice? A couple students wanted to head for fields full of cows, which will just ruin your day if you were actually going down.

FL270
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
I'm another one in the 500 AGL camp. The idea of the engine out procedure is to determine whether you can choose an adequate location and land "normally". In the best-case scenario that means somewhere between just before and just after a base to final turn. By that point, you should =know= whether the field is made or not.

Want to get closer? Sure? It's important to take some of these all the way down to landing. Do it with an airfield as the target.
 

GaTechKid

Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
The airplane was operated by Sawyer Aviation Training Center, Inc., Scottsdale, Arizona, and it was substantially damaged.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if mavmb1 has any additional input. I believe he is an instructor at Sawyer.
 

mtsu_av8er

Well-Known Member
Nobody said you have to have brains to put an aircraft down!!!

We had a idiot flight instructor simulate an engine failure by...ummm.....turning the fuel selector to off. HELLO, McFLY!!!!!
 

Mavmb

Well-Known Member
Yeah I've got input about that CFI if you want to call it that. That guy gave everyone at the school problems the day he started working there; especially me! He was kind of your typical know at all, and had a real short temper. In fact, for two months he didn't even talk to me and just cursed me out everytime I saw him! (For the guys in the Pan Am threads, there's your source you used to make up all those stories about me!) Anyway, I'm not going to get into all of the petty disputes and arguments me and the other coworkers had with him. Basically, I think this guy's attitude finally caught up with him. It's just sad that people were hurt and the airplane was destroyed. It's just one of those things that should have never happened. I don't know what else to say about it.
 

Cosmo1999

Well-Known Member
Well normally I like to terminate around 500 feet AGL however when I first teach students emergencies I like to take them out over fremont island over the great salt lake and take them right near the flare. According to 91.119 you are allowed to go below 500 feet AGL. It states that you need an altitude allowing if a power unit fails to make an emergency landing withoud undue hazard to persons or property on the surface.. If you are over a sparsely populated area then you may not operate the plane closer than 500 feet to any person, vessel, vehicle, or structure. However I do like to take the first couple simulated engine outs pretty low just so they see what its like and that yes you actually can take it all the way down without an engine and land safely. I have never needed to make an emergency landing because the engine has always fired up for us. However since we are over an uninhabited island that has hard pack dirt most of the year except when it has rained or snowed. I dont practice this in the winter however.. You can also practice this over open fields in sparsely populated areas.. You just have to be careful about it, leave the carb heat on and clear the engine every 500-1000 feet or so
 
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