SIC Type Rating

[MidlifeFlyer]

A question that has come up here from time to time is whether the 61.55 "SIC rating" is considered by the FAA as a type rating that would support such things as logging PIC time as the "sole manipulator of the controls" under 61.51(e)(1)(i).

In a recent published opinion, the FAA Chief Counsel's Office tells us it is not.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...interpretations/data/interps/2012/Counsil.pdf

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it is important to note that in order to have logged PIC time in the B757/767, in accordance with § 61.51 (e)(1)(i), you would have needed to possess a type rating that was not subject to a "SIC Privileges Only" limitation. A type rating subject to such limitation is solely intended to allow persons who met the SIC requirements found in § 61.55 to be able to operate in international airspace. Second-in-Command Pilot Type Rating, Final Rule, 70 FR 45264 (Aug. 4, 2005). An airman that is only qualified to serve as SIC of an aircraft would not be able to log PIC time under the provisions of § 61.51 (e)(1) because this person would not hold an appropriate type rating in the context of logging flight time.
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[rausda27]

Were there seriously people that thought that filling out an 8710 for the SIC type meant they could log PIC time? Seriously???

 

[Hacker15e]

Under what circumstances are SIC type ratings usually issued?

 

[ozziecat35]

Under what circumstances are SIC type ratings usually issued?

121 FO's?

 

[dasleben]

121 FO's?

A lot of us are PIC typed, specifically if we're qualified to act as relief pilots.

 

[BlueMoon]

Under what circumstances are SIC type ratings usually issued?

If you are going to serve as an SIC internationally this is the minimum required by most countries now. This came about 3 or 4 years back

 

[rausda27]

ICAO requirements, all regional FO's were issued SIC type for flights into Canada etc....Just hard to believe that there were guys that thought this equated to PIC eligibility as sole manipulator of controls.

 

[MidlifeFlyer]

Were there seriously people that thought that filling out an 8710 for the SIC type meant they could log PIC time? Seriously???

People believe all sorts of things. That one too. It was wrong but not all that ridiculous when one considers that a pilot doesn't necessarily need to be fully qualified to act as PIC in order to log it.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

A lot of us are PIC typed, specifically if we're qualified to act as relief pilots.

All of us will be soon.

 

[Hacker15e]

A lot of us are PIC typed, specifically if we're qualified to act as relief pilots.

That's why I was asking -- I wasn't of the belief that all 121 operations PIC-typed everyone in the front office, so I was curious who did what.

Is it that all regional FOs only SIC type? Do some Major FOs also get SIC typed? How about LCCs/Nationals/Charters/ACMI Freight/etc?

 

[RRPower]

That's why I was asking -- I wasn't of the belief that all 121 operations PIC-typed everyone in the front office, so I was curious who did what.

Is it that all regional FOs only SIC type? Do some Major FOs also get SIC typed? How about LCCs/Nationals/Charters/ACMI Freight/etc?

Rule of thumb...all 121 FOs are SIC typed, even at DAL, United, etc. FOs that serve as relief crewmembers on long hauls are all PIC typed be because at some point the CA has to go on break at some point. Charter, I don't know but I would assume they are the same as above.

Here is the kicker. Even if you are PIC typed on 121 ops, you still can't log PIC unless your name is on the CA spot of the release. I think the same would goes for 121 carriers doing 91 legs.

 

[dasleben]

Is it that all regional FOs only SIC type? Do some Major FOs also get SIC typed? How about LCCs/Nationals/Charters/ACMI Freight/etc?

I think it's pretty much all of the above, and depends on the company. I know a few major pilots (and I'm sure some will chime in) with SIC types, along with the LCC/National guys. Most Charter/ACMI pilots I know are PIC typed, but only because of the long-haul nature.

I don't log PIC at any point, even if I'm in the left seat in cruise.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

That's why I was asking -- I wasn't of the belief that all 121 operations PIC-typed everyone in the front office, so I was curious who did what.

Is it that all regional FOs only SIC type? Do some Major FOs also get SIC typed? How about LCCs/Nationals/Charters/ACMI Freight/etc?

Compass types all of their FOs with full PIC types. I seem to remember that Delta also types all of its 757/767 FOs (now that there aren't separate domestic/international divisions).

Most 121 carriers, if they haven't gotten with the program already, are going to start issuing full PIC types and ATPs to all pilot flight crewmembers later in the summer pursuant to HR 5900.

I don't log PIC at any point, even if I'm in the left seat in cruise.

Good, because you are not in any way shape or form the Captain. But rest assured, if something happens you'll be headed to the Big Brown Desk too.

 

[rausda27]

This reminds me of a phone interview I conducted with a potential hire for a SIC position in the Lear simulator. I asked if he had any type ratings and he mentioned he was typed in the ERJ. It wasn't until I saw his resume that he was an SIC at Express, he never mentioned the SIC limitation. The reason we asked about type ratings is to gauge their abilities in the simulator, those that have a PIC type tend to do better in training. (just a generalization)

 

[ghoster]

So, if you were SIC only typed say in a Challenger, then you could never log PIC time in the aircraft unless you were in a specific training program? Basically, you would be just swinging gear and talking on radio and never logging time? What would be benefit in that?

 

[dasleben]

So, if you were SIC only typed say in a Challenger, then you could never log PIC time in the aircraft unless you were in a specific training program? Basically, you would be just swinging gear and talking on radio and never logging time? What would be benefit in that?

You could log SIC time...

 

[ghoster]

How did I miss that?

 

[Autothrust Blue]

This reminds me of a phone interview I conducted with a potential hire for a SIC position in the Lear simulator. I asked if he had any type ratings and he mentioned he was typed in the ERJ. It wasn't until I saw his resume that he was an SIC at Express, he never mentioned the SIC limitation. The reason we asked about type ratings is to gauge their abilities in the simulator, those that have a PIC type tend to do better in training. (just a generalization)

That's largely a question of the training program. Where I work, we don't get checked on taxiing or the no-flap, battery power only landing, or Captain's duties during an RTO, and our oral is different. That's all going to change.

 

[dasleben]

That's largely a question of the training program. Where I work, we don't get checked on taxiing or the no-flap, battery power only landing, or Captain's duties during an RTO, and our oral is different. That's all going to change.

Are you getting a full type with the ATP, or still maintain an SIC type?

Disregard, I just realized an ATP ride and PIC type ride are the same. I got my ATP in that 402.

 

[Autothrust Blue]

Are you getting a full type with the ATP, or still maintain an SIC type?

Disregard, I just realized an ATP ride and PIC type ride are the same. I got my ATP in that 402.

As you stated, they're exactly the same. With the exception of the areas of operation I enumerated above, our own internal standards for performance for the full PIC type, and the SIC type ride, are actually exactly the same.