Score one for Civil Liberties

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Swiped from aviationtoday.com:

Wednesday, August 20, 2008
RAA, ATA Fight New Drug Testing Rules</SPAN>

Saying it raises a host of personnel problems and it has seen no evidence to support the rule change, the Regional Airline Association joined with the Air Transport Association (ATA) asking the Department of Transportation to delay its August 25 requirement that airlines “directly observe” the urine collection from specified employees under DOT’s procedures for Transportation Workplace Drug and Alcohol Testing Programs.
“All regional airlines have FAA approved drug testing programs which have done a great job of deterring what little drug use existed before testing was started,” said RAA President Roger Cohen, noting that other mainstream groups, including ALPA, the AFL-CIO and various railroad organizations have raised similar objections. “Mandating that certain samples must be ‘directly observed’ by same-gender collectors raises not only a host of training, enforcement and compliance issues, but also sensitive personal privacy concerns for our employees. The current procedures work well, and we’ll continue to work closely with FAA and DOT to keep these programs up to date. But in this case we have not seen any evidence that these obviously invasive changes will improve on what we have today.”
The RAA/ATA filing specifically refers to instructions in the new rules mandating that: “…you must request the employee to raise his or her shirt, blouse, or dress/skirt, as appropriate, above the waist; and lower clothing and underpants to show you, by turning around, that they do not have a prosthetic device. After you have determined that the employee does not have such a device, you may permit the employee to return clothing to its proper position for observed urination.”
 

Derg

New Arizona, Il Duce/Warlord
Staff member
Wow, I'm sure, uhh, glad the FAA is clamping down on the uhh, "rampant" drug use of pilots, ya know. Umm, all of those, uhh, high profile accidents dealing with drug-addled and intoxicated pilots, uhh, running planes off the end of the runway and all.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
How is that a good thing? You would be suprised how many folks cheat on drug tests. Is urine the only testing allowed or can they do hair? Just from my experience in the service you would be suprised at who tests positive for drugs. We even had a kid using the whizanator.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
Wow, I'm sure, uhh, glad the FAA is clamping down on the uhh, "rampant" drug use of pilots, ya know. Umm, all of those, uhh, high profile accidents dealing with drug-addled and intoxicated pilots, uhh, running planes off the end of the runway and all.
Doug, if you catch just one, isn't it worth it? We had 1 pilot and 1 nav both test positive while I was in for drugs. One wasn't just pot either.
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
Every airline, trucking company, military branch, blah, blah, blah has people that test positive for drugs. At my last shop someone (not a pilot, but a DOT tested positon) popped for Coke. People got fired for booze.

The idea that the protocols aren't strict enough is kinda silly. Sure maybe like one person might carry around a bag of piss for 4 to 20 days (depending on their airline of course), but the fact that people are getting caught are proof that it works.

There is an aside about taking all the time and what not to get to a DOT tested position, then pissing it (bad pun, sorry) all away.

However, I do know 121 has reasonable suspicion testing.

Now, I can think of ways to make the testing, um, more enjoyable, but that's a discussion for another time.:bandit:
 

Toonces

Well-Known Member
I was thinking it would be hilarious if you were a designated pee pee watcher to wait for someone to get a good stream going, then in a creepy voice say "oooooooooh yeahhh... thats's real gooooood yeahhhh....mmmmmm. For best effect it would also help to have a handlebar mustache.
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
I was thinking it would be hilarious if you were a designated pee pee watcher to wait for someone to get a good stream going, then in a creepy voice say "oooooooooh yeahhh... thats's real gooooood yeahhhh....mmmmmm. For best effect it would also help to have a handlebar mustache.
you would also need to start rubbing your hands together......
 

skidz

Well-Known Member
Doug, if you catch just one, isn't it worth it? We had 1 pilot and 1 nav both test positive while I was in for drugs. One wasn't just pot either.
There are people who would kill to do what they do and these guys throw it all away just like that...shame. Was that before 'zero tolerance' policy or after?
 

skydog

New Member
Sometimes it seems that the government is just bound and determined to destroy aviation. Putting aside the training and time building required for a moment, it's amazing what is expected of an individual applying for a job that pays 20K a year, at least to start. A person could make more money driving delivering pizza and not have to deal with the hassles.
To quote a colleague, "There are easier ways to starve to death."
 

Polar742

All the responsibility none of the authority
After additional thought, I guess I could be ok with it, but only after a "Drug Testees Bill of Rights" would be added (That just isn't right....I digress).

1) The individual being tested gets to pick from a selection of "qualified" observers.
2) An "optional" aiming service...
3) If found with an attached prosthetic device, a 5 day window to submit a written statement why the device was attahced. (ooohh yeeaahhh)
 

PDC

New Member
:drool:

I have a modest proposal in this regard.

I hate to see people settle for half measures such as direct observation of urination, when better methods are available.

It is well known in the medical community that a supra-pubic tap using a large-bore needle and syringe is the best way to get a good sample.

This procedure is not new by any means. Pediatricians have used it for years to obtain good samples when urinary tract infection is suspected in infants. It inflicts an amount of pain that most people will find quite bearable, especially if their jobs are at stake.

Pilots, having been shown to take almost any amount of personal abuse without complaint, will surely tolerate this procedure well. It has only a small risk of bleeding, infection, or cardiac arrest, and yields a sample completely free from contamination!

All serious pilots who object to drug use should support this new procedure.

Otherwise, they risk showing themselves to be supporters of drug use in the transportation industry, and a letter will be placed in their file, to which they will naturally have no access.

Let's get the druggies out of the cockpits once and for all!
 

Lee D

Well-Known Member
Random drug tests are fairly hard to get around. We usually get a message to call ops when our flight is still 10 min from landing. You then have to go get the test done within a specified time. Soooooo unless you always have a warm vial of urine and a handy prosthetic device in your locker at the airport, you are going to have a hard time defeating a random test. I'm sure there is some crazy way around it, but seriously would we really need to take this a step further?
 

Minuteman

“Dongola”
I would look forward to random drug testing if there were some kind of monthly contest and prize for distance and accuracy. The "supervisor" would be re-titled as "pee judge."

(†I can't figure out how to get around the problem that this discriminates against the female entrants.)
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
There are people who would kill to do what they do and these guys throw it all away just like that...shame. Was that before 'zero tolerance' policy or after?
We had a PR that was using the whizanator and someone was going to turn him in when he "faked" as suicide and went AWOL, but was caught later. Had a NFO pop positive for Coke, but the command didn't act quick enough and had lots of prior time so was able to retire (which is still BS), another FO popped for pot, took it to Court Martial and beat it, and then a pilot got caught doing extacy (or something like that).

For the 121 guys is it the company that does the tests or the FAA? How much time from notification to "ahem" delivery do you have?
 

N353SK

New Member
For the 121 guys is it the company that does the tests or the FAA? How much time from notification to "ahem" delivery do you have?
Not sure for flight crew, but when I was a ramper the supervisor would come and tell you to get into the company van and he would drive and sit with you in the waiting room. I can't think of a way to beat that besides not doing drugs.
 

ljg

Well-Known Member
So who has the worse job? The first year FO being required to piss in front of a complete stranger, or the complete stranger whose career is to observe people urinating.
 

The L Train

Well-Known Member
From what I saw on the CP's door the other day about this. It is only used if there is a reason to warrant such an observation. Prior failures, tampering with samples, and such. As far as just regular samples go I don't think the observation applies.
 
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