Safety Pilot X-Country Time

N

njdem82

New Member
Hi All,
Sorry about asking questions like this, I have limited myself and I will not do so as frequently in the future as I don't want to abuse this forum as a resource. Plus it is probably annoying , hope not.

Anyway in this case I have my CFI initial tomorrow , tried to call the FSDO but it was too late and want to have my logbook in order. I have gotten conflicting answers on this and cannot find guidance in the FAR that is clear on this or I am not using it correctly which would be a very bad sign this late in the game.

My question is can a safety pilot can log cross country time??

Any other limitations on what a safety pilot can and cannot log would be helpful , basically we built time like this at my school and I want to make sure that my logbook is in good order. I have logged cross country time as a safety pilot , was recently told that it is illegal

Thank you all for your patience and I will try not to test it. But would really appreciate any guidance on this.
 
I think he is referring to cross country time as considered by th FAA for meeting aeronautical experience requirments for different ratings. As far as the FAA is concerned no you cant log it as cross country time but you can log it as total time. Unless you made the takeoff and landing it isnt cross country time for you. So for example lets say you and your friend make a trip to a airpot that is more than 50nm away and you acted as safety pilot on the leg there and flew on the leg back. On the leg there you would just log total time while your friend logged total time, simulated instrument and cross country. On the way back it would be the opposite. He would be logging total time only and you would be logging total time, simulated instrument and cross country.
 
Inverted25 said:
I think he is referring to cross country time as considered by th FAA for meeting aeronautical experience requirments for different ratings. As far as the FAA is concerned no you cant log it as cross country time but you can log it as total time. Unless you made the takeoff and landing it isnt cross country time for you. So for example lets say you and your friend make a trip to a airpot that is more than 50nm away and you acted as safety pilot on the leg there and flew on the leg back. On the leg there you would just log total time while your friend logged total time, simulated instrument and cross country. On the way back it would be the opposite. He would be logging total time only and you would be logging total time, simulated instrument and cross country.
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with the exception of the X-C time requirement for the commercial cert.....which he already has! If he is qualifying for a cert/rating there wouldn't be another person in the airplane that wasn't his instructor anyway. Otherwise anything over 50NM, landing or no landing, is XC (ATP). I don't see anything in the regs that says you cannot log it as safety pilot.


On a secondary note, On my initial I don't really remember the examiner even looking at my logbook other than for the endorsments. If he did he certainly didn't "fine tooth comb" it for things such as this.
 
Inverted25 said:
Incompetence isnt a excuse.
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Ok Chuck Yeager, you need to relax. I was happy to leave it with a "you got me there".

For the record, I was talking about requirements for the ATP X-C logging. Those 2 rulings from the FAA dealt with 61.65. ATP aeronautical experience is 61.159. I was simply bringing up the fact that people were using the landing requirement to say that a safety pilot cannot log X-C because he doesn't land. Now, for ATP X-C time.....YOU DO NOT HAVE TO LAND. For other certs/ratings, disregarding the commercial cert,(which I mentioned) the requirements are receive flight instruction, or solo, for specific X-C related to qualifying for the cert/rating. So the safety pilot thing in those cases are not applicable anyway.

Perhaps you can show me how competent you are and find me some information on the difference since the ruling specifically mentions 61.65 and LANDING at an airport other than at the pilot's home base.
 
jrh said:
Hey, that's me.

I thought it was pretty ridiculous that a couple guys could literally fly across the continent without either being able to log cross country time, but that's the feds for you.
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I think how the rule interpretation process works is:

Request comes in
Chief Counsel - Regulations calls Flight Standards
Flight Standards answers
Chief Counsel - Regulations cites relevant regulations and what Flight Standards wants
????
Profit!
 
My point wasnt a insult I was simply stating that saying I didnt know wont work if the FAA has a problem with how you log your time thats all. It was a shot at you or anyone else just a general statement. But since you would like further clarification on the subject here is a real good explanation: (This isnt mine I simply am posting it here for educational purpose)

Okay, I can see some confusion in the safety pilot discussion. Remember there is a difference between serving as PIC and logging PIC time. PIC, as defined in FAR 1.1, means the pilot responsible for the operation and safety of an aircraft during flight time. FAR 61.51 deals with logging PIC flight time, and it provides that a private or commercial pilot may log as PIC time only that flight time during which he is the "sole manipulator" of the controls of an aircraft for which he is rated, or when he is the sole occupant of the aircraft, or when he acts as PIC of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft, or the regulations under which the flight is conducted (such as a safety pilot). It is important to note that FAR 61.51 only regulates the recording of PIC time used to meet the requirements toward a higher certificate, higher rating, or for recent flight experience. Most of the time when we are under the hood we are training for an instrument rating or to stay instrument current. So a CFII is not necessary except for the required 15 hours of flight training for the instrument rating.

Therefore, while it is not possible for two pilots to act as PIC simultaneously, it is possible for two pilots to log PIC flight time simultaneously. PIC flight time may be logged by both the PIC responsible for the operation and safety of the aircraft during flight time in accordance with FAR 1.1, and by the pilot who acts as the sole manipulator of the controls of the aircraft for which the pilot is rated under FAR 61.51.

Once the pilot flying puts on the hood, a safety pilot is necessary. It doesn't matter whether you are in actual instrument conditions or not.

If you are ASEL only rated then you can't be a safety pilot for a buddy in a twin. Also, can you act as a safety pilot in a complex aircraft (ASEL) if you don't have a complex endorsement? The answer is yes. You only have to be rated in the aircraft flown and endorsements are not ratings.

What about the case where you are instrument rated and on an IFR flight plan under the hood. Can your non-instrument rated buddy be a safety pilot? The answer is yes. He can't ACT as PIC. You are PIC and your buddy can log SIC time for example. The other way around is also possible. You are the instrument rated safety pilot and your buddy is the sole manipulator of the controls under the hood conducted under IFR. You ACT as PIC and can log PIC while he's under the hood and he can log PIC while under the hood (assuming he is rated in category and class of the airplane you are flying) because he's the sole manipulator of the controls.

Here's still another one. What happens at night? VFR or IFR, does the safety pilot log night time? The answer is yes. Since the flight was at night these are the "conditions" of the flight and therefore the safety pilot and the pilot flying can both log night time. What about cross country? The answer is no. Except for ATP, you can't log the time as cross country since you are not doing the landings as a safety pilot. (Remember ATP cross country doesn't require you to land.)

There are many other twists to this. But the basic idea is that if you are rated in the aircraft you can log time as PIC under the hood with a safety pilot on board and the safety pilot can log PIC if rated in the aircraft and holds a current medical. Note also, if the safety pilot (if not ACTing as PIC) need not be current, including a BFR.
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Autothrust Blue said:
I think how the rule interpretation process works is:

Request comes in
Chief Counsel - Regulations calls Flight Standards
Flight Standards answers
Chief Counsel - Regulations cites relevant regulations and what Flight Standards wants
????
Profit!
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I think you're right. At one time there was, at least from outward appearances, some friction between Flight Standards and Legal. There seems to be much more coordination between the two on Part 61 questions now.

But not always. Here's a recent opinion that makes you wonder
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../interpretations/data/interps/2010/Keller.pdf
I have information suggesting that Flight Standards agrees with what's in the Federal Register preamble. I think Legal is correct but one would thing "coordination" would result in an amendment or an opinion that at least sounds like it was coordinated.
 
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