Safety Pilot without Endorsement

Adrock

Well-Known Member
So I have my Commercial checkride scheduled and my instructor is convinced that 10 hours of my total time wont count because it was safety pilot time in both a tail wheel and high performance airplane (two endorsements that I dont have yet.) I did tons of research ahead of serving as the safety pilot for these times and found that I only need a SEL private and medical. I have found letters supporting my point on the FAA chief Legal Counsel website (one written to the AOPA) that confirm the legitimacy of this safety pilot time, but he is not convinced. He called the local FSDO and the FAA guy he spoke to apparently backed my instructor up and said that I would need those endorsements to serve as (SIC.) I dont understand what the purpose is of these Legal INterpretations being published on the FAA website if they have no Authority. The DPE I scheduled with said he agreed with me but i am worried about my log book being illegal because of this SIC time logged and dont want it to haunt me in a future job interview. Any thoughts?
 
Your instructor is wrong. The legal interpretations are right.

To log PIC time (or SIC time as you seem to indicate), the regulations require "category, class, and a type rating, if required." Nowhere do they mention endorsements to LOG time.

Now if you start talking about ACTING as PIC, then you have to have the endorsements.
 
Your instructor is wrong. The legal interpretations are right.

To log PIC time (or SIC time as you seem to indicate), the regulations require "category, class, and a type rating, if required." Nowhere do they mention endorsements to LOG time.

Now if you start talking about ACTING as PIC, then you have to have the endorsements.

But how can you log PIC if you are not acting as PIC? Just wondering. I thought to log safety pilot time as PIC you have to be qualified on what you are logging time on. Meaning if you are not endorsed on equipment such as tailwheel or complex, you are not qualified to log. This because if you are to log time as safety pilot you are taking responsibility of the flight as well. Just wondering.
 
But how can you log PIC if you are not acting as PIC? Just wondering. I thought to log safety pilot time as PIC you have to be qualified on what you are logging time on. Meaning if you are not endorsed on equipment such as tailwheel or complex, you are not qualified to log. This because if you are to log time as safety pilot you are taking responsibility of the flight as well. Just wondering.

Common misunderstanding. Logging PIC and acting as PIC have nothing to do with each other. The FARs give the requirements for both. You do have to be qualified in the category and class if you're going to LOG PIC. To ACT as PIC (ie, the person responsible for the safe outcome of the flight), you have to have the appropriate endorsements.

61.51(e)
Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted
(emphasis added and I clipped item (iv) for brevity and because it doesn't apply)

Then you have 61.31 which covers endorsements. 61.31(e) says
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has...
(emphasis added)

The endorsements for high altitude, high performance, and tailwheel are essentially the same.

Notice under the logging regulations they say "is rated ... for category and class." Ratings are what are printed on your pilot certificate such as ASEL. Don't get caught up on the "or has privileges" for two reasons. One, it says "or" which means if you satisfy either condition, you're good. Two, it's referring to sport pilots who have slightly different rules with the types of airplanes they can fly.

Hopefully I've covered everything. If I didn't answer something, just let me know, and I'll try again. :)
 
Your instructor is wrong. The legal interpretations are right.

To log PIC time (or SIC time as you seem to indicate), the regulations require "category, class, and a type rating, if required." Nowhere do they mention endorsements to LOG time.

Now if you start talking about ACTING as PIC, then you have to have the endorsements.

I can't tell if you are correct or not.

To log SIC time as a safety pilot, all you need are category and class ratings and a current medical.

To log PIC time as a safety pilot, you also need PIC endorsements and PIC currency.

Those are both clear from the reg and the interpretations. On the PIC part, as you quoted (different emphasis):
==============================
Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted
==============================
That's the part under which the safety pilot logs PIC time. A safety pilot LOGS PIC only when the safety pilot ACTS as PIC
 
I can't tell if you are correct or not.

To log SIC time as a safety pilot, all you need are category and class ratings and a current medical.

To log PIC time as a safety pilot, you also need PIC endorsements and PIC currency.

Those are both clear from the reg and the interpretations. On the PIC part, as you quoted (different emphasis):
==============================
Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted
==============================
That's the part under which the safety pilot logs PIC time. A safety pilot LOGS PIC only when the safety pilot ACTS as PIC

The above is the way I have understood the safety pilot logging time as PIC question. A safety pilot can only log PIC time if he is ACTING as PIC, thus needing to have the appropriate endorsements for what he is flying.
 
I can't tell if you are correct or not.

To log SIC time as a safety pilot, all you need are category and class ratings and a current medical.

To log PIC time as a safety pilot, you also need PIC endorsements and PIC currency.

Those are both clear from the reg and the interpretations. On the PIC part, as you quoted (different emphasis):
==============================
Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;

(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted
==============================
That's the part under which the safety pilot logs PIC time. A safety pilot LOGS PIC only when the safety pilot ACTS as PIC

Ah yes. You are correct.

OK everyone. Everything I said is correct except for when you're logging PIC as a safety pilot. I screwed up by jumping on this one too quickly.
 
JUN 2 4 1991
Mr. Glenn H. Rizner
Technical/Airports Specialist
Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association 421 Aviation Way
Frederick, MD 21701-4798


Dear Mr. Rizner:

This is in response to your letter of November 5, 1990, concerning an interpretation of Section 91.109(b)(1) of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR). We apologize for the delay in responding to you. Your question is set forth below and is followed by our interpretation of the FAR.

Question:

Your question, in pertinent part, states:

Does an appropriately rated safety pilot have to have a high performance sign-off prior to acting as second in command (safety pilot) in a high-performance airplane? (For example: a Piper Arrow or a Cessna Cutlass)

Since an endorsement is not a rating, the private pilot in our scenario, acting as second in command, appears to hold the appropriate category and class ratings. Therefore, he would be able to act as safety pilot without a high performance endorsement.

Again, since our pilot is acting as second in command, a review of the regulation would support the fact that he does not need the high performance endorsement.

To verify this, I spoke with [the FAA] ... and was told, although the safety pilot is acting as second in command, "he must be capable of taking over and acting as pilot in command in case of potential hazards during the flight".

We do not believe the FARs support this position and therefore would like to request a written interpretation in order to formally clarify this issue.
Answer:

Section 1.1 states, in pertinent part, that:

"Category":

(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a broad classification of aircraft. Examples include: airplane; rotorcraft; glider; and lighter-than-air;
"Class"
(1) As used with respect to the certification, ratings, privileges, and limitations of airmen, means a classification of aircraft with a category having similar operating characteristics. Examples include: single engine; multiengine; land; water; gyroplane; helicopter; airship; and free balloon; ...

Section 91.109(b) states, in pertinent part, that:

No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless -

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

Section 61.31(e) states, in pertinent part, that:

High performance airplanes. A person holding a private or commercial pilot certificate may not act as pilot in command of an airplane that has more than 200 horsepower, or that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller, unless he has received flight instruction from an authorized flight instructor who has certified in his logbook that he is competent to pilot an airplane that has more than 200 horsepower, or that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable propeller, as the case may be.

A fundamental principle of statutory construction is that when language is clear and unambiguous it must be held to mean what it plainly expresses. Applying the meaning of the words "category" and "class" as defined in Part 1 of the FAR to Section 91.109(b)(1), a safety pilot would need at least a private pilot certificate with category (i.e., a broad classification of aircraft, e.g., airplane) and class (i.e., aircraft with a category having similar operating characteristics, e.g., single engine) ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.

Another principle of statutory construction is that all parts of the statute (i.e., preamble language) should be given equal weight. The preamble language to Amendment 91-36, 32 Federal Register 260, January 11, 1967, discussed Section 91.109(a)(2), which in 1967 was numbered as 91.21(b). Like Section 91.109(b), Section 91.109(a) (2) uses the terms category and class in stating that "The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings." That preamble language states that "[Under present § 91.21(b), for simulated instrument flight an 'appropriately rated pilot' must occupy the other control seat as safety pilot. Section 91.21(b) has been interpreted to require a private pilot certificate with an airplane category rating and multiengine class rating for a small multiengine land plane, and a type rating for a large airplane or for a turbojet powered airplane (large or small)."

Therefore, regarding your question, our opinion is that the safety pilot would need only a private pilot certificate with an airplane category and single engine land class ratings.

While our opinion is that there is no regulatory requirement that a safety pilot have a high performance endorsement to act as safety pilot, we are advised by the General Aviation & Commercial Division of the Flight Standards Service that they have always encouraged those pilots who act as safety pilots to be thoroughly familiar and current in the aircraft that is used. We are also advised by the General Aviation and Commercial Division that the FAA is currently in the process of reviewing the appropriate parts of the FAR to determine, among other things, if a safety pilot should be required to have a high performance endorsement.

This interpretation has been prepared by David Metzbower, Staff Attorney, Operations Law Branch, Regulations and Enforcement Division; Richard C. Beitel, Manager.

This interpretation has been coordinated with the Manager, General Aviation and Commercial Division, Flight Standards Service.

We hope this satisfactorily answers your question. Sincerely,

Donald P. Byrne
Assistant Chief Counsel
Regulations and Enforcement Division
 
The DPE I scheduled with said he agreed with me but i am worried about my log book being illegal because of this SIC time logged and dont want it to haunt me in a future job interview. Any thoughts?
It's legal usable total time, and the DPE knows that. But copy the letter because you will forever more have to explain and prove the time to many many people down the road as you go thru life....

....until you don't have to log anymore(gigity)
 
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