Saber Rattling at United Airlines

[B767Driver]

As for UAL's heavy employee load, you only need to look at their training center for evidence of the problem. I was absolutely amazed at the glut of administrative employees that my newhire friends were telling me about over there. They probably have more administrative employees working in the uniform office over there than we have in our entire training center. Uniform office, pass travel office, offices for several managers for each fleet, etc... It's ridiculous. There's absolutely no need to have such a huge infrastructure.

100% correct.

Delta used to have a group of 5 employees that did nothing except sit in an office and answer pilots' questions about FARs and Ops Specs if they had a question on the line. Needless to say they were gone during bankruptcy.

 

[surreal1221]

So if/when management figures out that they screwed up, they can close the base and displace the workers, right? Or should they fire themselves and leave the base open so the workers don't get the fallout of management's errors?

It's clear to me that some of us are okay with being blamed for our respective management's poor business decisions.

I on the other hand, and an increasing number of middle class wage earners, are tired of seeing our fellow middle class wage earners and union brothers/sisters being blamed for management's inability to keep a company in profitability.

I know I know. . .it's so easy to just bow down at our management, but this most certainly is not the first time in my relatively short lifespan that I've seen management trying to cut costs by simply displacing labor.

It doesn't work that way. Never has, and it never will.

So yes, management must fess up to poor business decisions, and in turn, must charge an appropriate rate for the services that their business is providing. Close the base if needed, keep the employees employed though by offering them positions in other locations while providing a moving allowance. If the employee decides not to take the offer, fine. . .but at least the company made an attempt - which is far more than is being offered to a number of people right now.

Unfortunately, that seems to be a missing trait that continues to go missing every cycle of "Displace to profitability."

No company has ever laid-off people to profitability. . .never. Yet, in the airline industry this tactic appears to be an okay one. Makes my head spin.

I can understand how also some who haven't grown up in an airline family may not share these same opinions. It's quite eye opening to see these trends over and over again.

 

[Velocipede]

It's like animal farm. Some animals are more equal than others.

Fuel costs are up. WE need to cut YOUR pay. But I need a bonus because without my talent, you will sink.

Four legs good, two legs better!

 

[SteveC]

It's clear to me that some of us are okay with being blamed for our respective management's poor business decisions.

I never said, nor implied that. Please don't insinuate that I did.

I know exactly where the blame lies. I've never blamed the workers. All that I've said is that it is the nature of business that often laborers are hired because of poor management decisions. Somewhere down the road the result of that decision comes back around. It's not the worker's fault, but they will still take the hit.

I don't blame old airplanes when they are put out in the desert, either.

Crying about it and demanding that jobs be kept and wages kept whole when the business cannot support it won't change the outcome. Feel free to come visit Michigan and look at what happened to one of the strongest union workforces in the world - the UAW. Highly skilled, highly paid, with great benefit packages, but when times got tight and they had to compete against offshore labor, they took a bullet. Do I like it? Heck no! Do I feel bad for the workers in all of those factories that shut down? Heck yeah!

You do know what would have happened if all of those workers had been kept employed by GM, Ford, and Chrysler, don't you? They, and all of their co-workers in all of the other company factories would be out of work because those corporations would no longer exist. What we ended up with was a poor compromise - some of the work went to Mexico, some of it went off-shore completely, and some of it went to southern states with lower wages and lesser benefit packages for their workers. Stinky outcome for the good people of Michigan, and Indiana, and Ohio, but still better than everything going to Japan and Korea and China.

If you think I'm a management apologist you are way off base. But I will say that I believe that many of your "solutions" are just pie in the sky wishful thinking that will get your coworkers hurt.

 

[surreal1221]

Sure, pie in the sky. . .but principles matter.

Employees should not have to feel the bat of poor business decisions made by management who have far more money than they could possibily ever need.

It's an easy decision for them on what to do - because they don't depend on that paycheck. Stock options, millions in bonuses. Must be nice to be living that type of lifestyle where you don't have to worry about how you're going to make ends meet. All the while, the bottom 1/3 of your employee base is having to deal with these very issues.

Take another 15-20% pay-cut. . .or have the company close. . .or just have them send the jobs to China, India, or some other developing company that'll work for peanuts.

Eventually that income is eroded to nearly nothing. For what? So disgruntled workers can come do a job that they now hate to do because it sucks whatever life they had after 3 or 4 pay cuts, benefit reductions, pension deletion, that they had?

Yeah - that's the life. That's the American Way. Something to be proud of.

My opinions are not solutions, never thought I projected the solution mentality. But rather, I have a large amount of sympathy for the middle class worker that has seen a quality profession (textiles, automotive, steel, etc) sent overseas just so that their company can continue to stay in business. . .but while their own lifestyle at home has downgraded 4 or 5 times. The developing countries societies should not be able to prosper while our own here in this country are having trouble taking care of their own. Don't get me wrong. . .the western civilization lifestyle is great. . .and I would of course want everyone to enjoy it. . .but that's not the case. Cheap labor is not getting a western civilization lifestyle with a house, 1.2 acres, 2.5 kids, and 2 cars. They're still getting the same $3 a day paycheck, while we here are just seeing our ability to pay the bills disappear like a ghost.

I know it's a myth, but some people still believe in the American Dream.

So yes, I will blame management for the issues of a failing company. It's certainly not the middle class wage earner who is simply doing their best they can do to keep their job - and whatever QOL they have for their family in place.

My solution, since you think I'm offering one. . .

Take pride in what is American. The US of A trusted labor to bring this country together through two world wars and a great depression. The American lifestyle is more important than finding cheap labor.

Then again. . .I'm not in management, so I'll never have an opportunity to not send work overseas.

 

[SteveC]

It appears to me that our disagreement on this topic boils down to your apparent belief that management is inherently evil, while I don't come close to thinking that. People are people, whether labor or management. Some are good, some are bad, some are stellar, some are incompetent. It really has little to do with their station in life.

It often seems to me that people need to have something to hate and someone to blame when things go sour. It is so much easier to simplify a problem down to good and evil, black and white, when in reality the situation is much more complicated. In business, as in government, it is seldom one person's fault (or credit) for things that happen in this world on a large scale. The factors are numerous and complicated.

It's probably human nature to try to simplify the complicated. Unfortunately it is possible to lose the essence by trying to boil things down too far. It's easy to see another example by going over to the Technical forum and seeing how people misunderstand many aspects of flight by trying to over-simplify them. Many of the equations used in designing aircraft and describing what happens during flight can't be simplified any more. Those equations, complicated as they are, take all of the outside factors into account, and mistakes in understanding happen when some of those factors are left out.

I think that the same kind of thing often happens when it comes to labor/management discussions. I happen to believe that it is a very complicated subject, and understanding the outside factors that influence decisions are more important than taking the simplistic view of "labor good, management bad".

Pilots have to understand how and why management makes the decisions that they do in order to be effective in promoting our own interests. To attribute managements' actions purely to blind greed is incorrect, and ignores the very factors that we could use to help ourselves. I understand very well that management's first interest isn't pro-pilot, it is pro-business. Smart companies learn how to see employees as assets instead of liabilities, but that only works when the employees also understand that their financial well-being is integrally intertwined with the well-being of the company. Yin-yang. Two sides of the same coin. For either party to demand that their way is the only way is to demand destruction for all.

THAT (in an overly-simplified way ) is why I disagree with the "management is evil" philosophy.

 

[WacoFan]

Captain Wallach and the rest of the UAL MEC are doing a superb job over there of standing their ground and refusing to back down to management's BS. They made a great choice in picking him as their new MEC Chairman. Reminds me a lot of Rick Dubinsky, the father of the '85 strike and the "Summer of Love." Hard-nosed tactics are what get things done when dealing with management like this.

As for UAL's heavy employee load, you only need to look at their training center for evidence of the problem. I was absolutely amazed at the glut of administrative employees that my newhire friends were telling me about over there. They probably have more administrative employees working in the uniform office over there than we have in our entire training center. Uniform office, pass travel office, offices for several managers for each fleet, etc... It's ridiculous. There's absolutely no need to have such a huge infrastructure.

And to tie this into a small disagreement we had on another thread...THIS IS WHAT ALPA NEEDS TO PUBLICIZE. For the cost of the focus groups and consultants that told ALPA that the general public's opinion didn't matter (and I am not arguing that data at all), they could simply start planting stories in various media along the lines of "....you know, these numbnuts have been making millions in salary and bonuses while steering the airlines toward the rocks and the first thing they do is call the pilots (you know, the ones most directly responsible for the incredible safety of air travel) greedy, underworked and grossly overpaid and force us to take concessions, want us to relax work rules making us less alert and dangerous, and take our retirements away. Then, after that they pay themselves more millions and continue to lose money until they pull the cord on their golden parachute..."

This story will resonate - I want ALPA and APA to directly call out the CEO's by name and attach that name with lower safety and standards due to their own mismanagement. Pilots have been used like a speedbag by management long enough.

Or, we can go back to the thread about the Russian sex-slaves and morph my idea onto mid-management and above executives at airlines. PCL didn't have the stomach for it regarding people that enable slavery...but I bet that he would be all for it with airline management!

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

It appears to me that our disagreement on this topic boils down to your apparent belief that management is inherently evil, while I don't come close to thinking that.

To the contrary, I think it's the exact opposite! Inherent implies that it is "in their nature" or simply the way that they are born, and that couldn't be further from the truth. What makes them so horrible is the fact that it isn't inherent. It's something that they choose. Every time they manipulate the system to cut someone pay in half, it's a choice that they make. Every time they terminate an employee without just cause in order to take a contract hostage, its a choice that they make. Every time they lie to the employees about needing concessions for the company to survive, it's a choice. It's not "inherent" at all, which is what makes it so truly evil. Every day they go to work, they are choosing to do evil things.

Stating that it's inherent or innate is letting them off the hook too easy. They aren't naturally evil. They choose to be evil.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

And to tie this into a small disagreement we had on another thread...THIS IS WHAT ALPA NEEDS TO PUBLICIZE. For the cost of the focus groups and consultants that told ALPA that the general public's opinion didn't matter (and I am not arguing that data at all), they could simply start planting stories in various media along the lines of "....you know, these numbnuts have been making millions in salary and bonuses while steering the airlines toward the rocks and the first thing they do is call the pilots (you know, the ones most directly responsible for the incredible safety of air travel) greedy, underworked and grossly overpaid and force us to take concessions, want us to relax work rules making us less alert and dangerous, and take our retirements away. Then, after that they pay themselves more millions and continue to lose money until they pull the cord on their golden parachute..."

This story will resonate - I want ALPA and APA to directly call out the CEO's by name and attach that name with lower safety and standards due to their own mismanagement. Pilots have been used like a speedbag by management long enough.

This is done all the time. ALPA frequently calls out management about their exorbitant bonuses. Maybe you missed it a couple of months ago, but NWA's CEO Doug Steenland went on the Today show to talk about the state of the airline. He was talking about how tough the industry conditions were, how they were struggling to survive, yada, yada, yada. The interviewer (can't remember her name) stopped him mid-sentence and demanded to know why he was taking multi-million dollar bonuses if his carrier was in such dire straights. You should have seen the look on his face. Priceless! He was never expecting that. Guess who tipped off NBC news and requested a little help in knocking Mr. Steenland down a peg or two on national TV? I'll give you a hint: it certainly wasn't USAPA.

Or, we can go back to the thread about the Russian sex-slaves and morph my idea onto mid-management and above executives at airlines. PCL didn't have the stomach for it regarding people that enable slavery...but I bet that he would be all for it with airline management!

Nah, firing squad is far too good for scumbags like Steenland and the rest of the airline management scum. Send 'em to the chair!

 

[WacoFan]

This is done all the time. ALPA frequently calls out management about their exorbitant bonuses. Maybe you missed it a couple of months ago, but NWA's CEO Doug Steenland went on the Today show to talk about the state of the airline. He was talking about how tough the industry conditions were, how they were struggling to survive, yada, yada, yada. The interviewer (can't remember her name) stopped him mid-sentence and demanded to know why he was taking multi-million dollar bonuses if his carrier was in such dire straights. You should have seen the look on his face. Priceless! He was never expecting that. Guess who tipped off NBC news and requested a little help in knocking Mr. Steenland down a peg or two on national TV? I'll give you a hint: it certainly wasn't USAPA.



Nah, firing squad is far too good for scumbags like Steenland and the rest of the airline management scum. Send 'em to the chair!

Awesome - we are close to agreement on these points! maybe the first time. The hounding of these people in the media and elsewhere has to be relentless and never ending. Would have loved to see Steenland answer that - what did he say?

 

[surreal1221]

It appears to me that our disagreement on this topic boils down to your apparent belief that management is inherently evil, while I don't come close to thinking that. People are people, whether labor or management. Some are good, some are bad, some are stellar, some are incompetent. It really has little to do with their station in life.

THAT (in an overly-simplified way ) is why I disagree with the "management is evil" philosophy.

Actually Steve, it's really not all that complicated . . . like you make it sound to be.

It's real simple.

Treat your employees like they actually mean something. Don't expect them to easily give up their pay, benefits, or QOL if you yourself as a manager are not willing to return every little bonus and stock plan you took for yourself.

The end.

Simple as that. Has nothing about Management being evil, or if management's evilness is an inherent evil or not. Because - in your large statement above, no one is evil. It's perception. Along with the principle that you treat your employees in a respectable manner, and we might actually be willing to work towards the common goal - making the company profitable, and securing ALL of our futures; not just yours Mr. CEO.

It has to do with treating your employees as equals. Something that must not be getting taught at Yale or Harvard's MBA programs these days.

 

[SteveC]

To the contrary, I think it's the exact opposite! Inherent implies that it is "in their nature" or simply the way that they are born, and that couldn't be further from the truth. What makes them so horrible is the fact that it isn't inherent. It's something that they choose. Every time they manipulate the system to cut someone pay in half, it's a choice that they make. Every time they terminate an employee without just cause in order to take a contract hostage, its a choice that they make. Every time they lie to the employees about needing concessions for the company to survive, it's a choice. It's not "inherent" at all, which is what makes it so truly evil. Every day they go to work, they are choosing to do evil things.

Stating that it's inherent or innate is letting them off the hook too easy. They aren't naturally evil. They choose to be evil.

Slow down hoss. I didn't say inherent in them personally. I said that you guys seem to believe it is inherent in the position. The rest of your post says the same - that managers chose to do evil things because they are managers.

I'm afraid that you are missing my point once again. The managers are not chosing to do evil things, they are chosing to do things that have both good and bad impacts on peoples' lives. The reason that they make those decisions has nothing to do with being evil and sticking it to the pilot group. Attributing their motives to simple evil is to miss the opportunity inherent in truly understanding our enemy. When we as pilots misrepresent managements' intentions we will never (and I mean never) make much progress in improving the lives of pilots.

 

[derg]

I think what the issue is, is that there's a lot of stress in the passenger airline business and, as it did during Furlough-a-pooloza at Delta, that we feel a little 'arbitrary'.

Almost like the powers-that-be decide, "Hey! Let's lay off.... hmm.... 47 1/2 pilots!"

Then Smithers says, "Uhh, Mr. Burns, we can't lay off a half pilot".

"Well, slice one in half!" then seemingly bust out the beluga and cognac.

When things get bad in the airline business, the pain is rarely universally felt. Managers, many who may have driven the operation into the ground get exit packages and severance pay, while the worker-bee's of the group seemingly get the shaft.

Upper management aren't godless bastards, but they certainly aren't angels either, but sometimes a little temporary 'vent' might be necessary so we can bring our heads together and figure out how to weather the storm.

Just a couple notes from the peanut gallery here!

 

[SteveC]

Actually Steve, it's really not all that complicated . . . like you make it sound to be.

It's real simple.

Treat your employees like they actually mean something. Don't expect them to easily give up their pay, benefits, or QOL if you yourself as a manager are not willing to return every little bonus and stock plan you took for yourself.

You know what...I agree completely with the last paragraph. That's not what we were talking about before, but this I can agree with.

Simple as that. Has nothing about Management being evil, or if management's evilness is an inherent evil or not. Because - in your large statement above, no one is evil. It's perception. Along with the principle that you treat your employees in a respectable manner, and we might actually be willing to work towards the common goal - making the company profitable, and securing ALL of our futures; not just yours Mr. CEO.

It has to do with treating your employees as equals. Something that must not be getting taught at Yale or Harvard's MBA programs these days.

Doesn't sound like PCL agrees with you much about the "evil" part.

Actually I agree with pretty much everything you're saying here.

I still say that the reasons that pilots get furloughed, bases closed, and planes mothballed is much more complicated than simply blaming everything on an evil management, but you are right on the mark with your comments about labor/management relations.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

Awesome - we are close to agreement on these points! maybe the first time. The hounding of these people in the media and elsewhere has to be relentless and never ending. Would have loved to see Steenland answer that - what did he say?

He just stared at her for a few seconds, not quite sure what to say (he was probably expecting the typical soft-ball interview questions that CEOs get from the business media), and then he launched into a string of lies about how management had taken paycuts too and everyone was suffering equally.

Slow down hoss. I didn't say inherent in them personally. I said that you guys seem to believe it is inherent in the position. The rest of your post says the same - that managers chose to do evil things because they are managers.

Not at all. Some managers don't choose to behave in this manner. Herb Kelleher and Gordon Bethune are perfect examples. They behave as honorable men and treat people with respect. Steenland, Parker, Wolf, and many others choose to behave in evil ways, instead. It's not the position that is evil, it's the actions of the individual.

I'm afraid that you are missing my point once again. The managers are not chosing to do evil things, they are chosing to do things that have both good and bad impacts on peoples' lives. The reason that they make those decisions has nothing to do with being evil and sticking it to the pilot group. Attributing their motives to simple evil is to miss the opportunity inherent in truly understanding our enemy. When we as pilots misrepresent managements' intentions we will never (and I mean never) make much progress in improving the lives of pilots.

Years of sitting across the board room table from them taught me otherwise, Steve. Their motivations are rooted purely in greed and ego. They have no motivation to treat people with respect or to do the right thing. They care only about themselves and their own egos. You think I got to be this militant without something causing it? I used to be a hard-core, supply-side, Republican, management-loving, kool-aid drinker not too many years ago. That all changed after I had to deal directly with them for a few years. I learned how many of them behave, and what their motivations are. Fool me once.....

 

[surreal1221]

Shame on you.

 

[WacoFan]

I can see where Steve is coming from actually. I am a very pro-business guy and former business owner. What absolutely irks me though is the people that get paid for failure. Pilots, FA's, mechanics, etc get it in the pooper while Steenland, Arpey and Parker et al get their huge bonuses. It is criminal. Look - I hope Herb made HUGE money at SWA - he ran a good airline and to the best of my knowledge he took care of the people. Fred Smith at FedEx had a great idea and executed it well - he deserves whatever he gets. The key is that SWA and FedEx are not losing hideous amounts of money. I don't think every billionaire is an evil person - I know two and they started with nothing but an idea and hard work. They don't screw their employees - and I work for one of them so I know, and they produce a product that is valued. It is the guys who consistently lose money, blame labor and downsize them and still get their bonuses that piss me off. I was on an AA flight this winter, got to DFW and waited 35 minutes at the gate because we arrived early and there was nobody to drive the jet bridge. As I was getting off I told the pilots that since AA was obviously not using the money they took from you to staff their hub correctly they should aggressively stalk Arpey until they get it back. They both chuckled and thanked me. Perhaps we should start a new thread or poll voting for the worst airline CEO.

 

[surreal1221]

I call those guys the

"Hopping Failure CEO Club."

Bring down one company, get the parachute, and end up at the top of another company. Two to three years later. . .bringing the company down, getting a new parachute.

 

[Polar742]

I guess top-heavy mgt isn't Solely to blame, as much as incompetence may be.

Our happy family, 1 holding company, 2 airlines, 19 VPs, 32 airplanes, and about 95% of revenue/flying is international.

1.5 billion in revenue, netting $132mil and change last year (https://employees.atlasair.com/itk/AAWW_2007_Annual.pdf)

 

[surreal1221]

Almost one VP per airplane. . .amazing!