Runway Incursion

ohioaviator

Well-Known Member
After I watched it I took a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cofPH1y9vuw&feature=related which has a little more audio from the incident. But to answer your question I think they were both at fault, the pilots made the initial error and afterward once they realized what they'd done and told the controller their position, she (the controller) seemed to have blown them off as "not knowing where they were" and continued operations rather than admitting she didn't know where the hell they were and figure the situation out. My .02
 

Lalexf

Well-Known Member
After I watched it I took a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cofPH1y9vuw&feature=related which has a little more audio from the incident. But to answer your question I think they were both at fault, the pilots made the initial error and afterward once they realized what they'd done and told the controller their position, she (the controller) seemed to have blown them off as "not knowing where they were" and continued operations rather than admitting she didn't know where the hell they were and figure the situation out. My .02
I agree!!!:yeahthat:

Very interesting thanks for the post.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
Like I said, there is more to the story. The CA (male) of the UA was never lost. He was trying to show up the FO (female). He didn't think she had a right to be in the cockpit. She also did have her -9 page out.
 

ohioaviator

Well-Known Member
Like I said, there is more to the story. The CA (male) of the UA was never lost. He was trying to show up the FO (female). He didn't think she had a right to be in the cockpit. She also did have her -9 page out.
Interesting, so what came of it?
 

mnixon

Well-Known Member
If you want to see the video, go to recurrent, they've shown it in every initial and recurrent I've ever been to.
 

dofficalatc

New Member
Who's at Fault? It's foggy...but she's stubborn.... What do you think?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BvgSS6kBdU&NR=1
I listened to your link and one that came up after this link. In my opinion 1448 got lost admitted so, the controller cleared a plane over there heads without ensuring that the runway was clear when the united craft stopped just over the runway. The only smart people were the crew of the plane that was second in line to take off. United was unsure of the position and reported that they were on 26R confusing the controller. The controller than wouldn't listen to the crew once they figured out where they were. She thought they were still lost. I digressed a bit, the fault is with the united crew, however ATC was acting superior and refussing to listen to where the crew was and understanding where they were on the airport. The diagram showed that Kilo only ran right there by 23L and parallel to 16. So for the controller to not recognize that the plane was at 23L and not 23 R she is at fault for trying clearing the other plane to take off. So they both screwed up and luckily no one ran into each other.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I listened to your link and one that came up after this link. In my opinion 1448 got lost admitted so, the controller cleared a plane over there heads without ensuring that the runway was clear when the united craft stopped just over the runway. The only smart people were the crew of the plane that was second in line to take off. United was unsure of the position and reported that they were on 26R confusing the controller. The controller than wouldn't listen to the crew once they figured out where they were. She thought they were still lost. I digressed a bit, the fault is with the united crew, however ATC was acting superior and refussing to listen to where the crew was and understanding where they were on the airport. The diagram showed that Kilo only ran right there by 23L and parallel to 16. So for the controller to not recognize that the plane was at 23L and not 23 R she is at fault for trying clearing the other plane to take off. So they both screwed up and luckily no one ran into each other.


Like I said, the CA of the UA was never lost. He was playing dumb to make his FO look bad, but once the controller tried to kill him he let if be known fast where he was. The controller was new and this was her 1st time working on her own in bad weather. The guys in the USair jet did save lives but at the end they f-up the read back.
 

pm577

New Member
Like I said, the CA of the UA was never lost. He was playing dumb to make his FO look bad, but once the controller tried to kill him he let if be known fast where he was. The controller was new and this was her 1st time working on her own in bad weather. The guys in the USair jet did save lives but at the end they f-up the read back.
I disagree. If the captain knew where he was, then he would not have allowed an incursion onto the active runway. (I believe a portion of the aircraft was beyond the hold short bars) A captain should not knowingly allow his aircraft to be anywhere not instructed.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
I disagree. If the captain knew where he was, then he would not have allowed an incursion onto the active runway. (I believe a portion of the aircraft was beyond the hold short bars) A captain should not knowingly allow his aircraft to be anywhere not instructed.
With the CA of the UA flight?
In his post report he stated he was what I said.
 

pm577

New Member
With the CA of the UA flight?
In his post report he stated he was what I said.
Either way he's just as guilty.
Either he's trying to stick it to the FO, thereby endangering himself and passengers.
Or he was initially lost, and finally figured out his bearings after the Fedex departed a few feet in front of his windshield. I tend to think the second case since he states "1448 is on November by the runways here, we don't see the...uh..are we cleared across straight ahead on November"
At this point he is on Bravo coming up to 5R. He doesn't know where he is, because he's asking if he should taxi across 5R. (He should have been crossing 5L and 34 on November, that's why he says 'runways' plural.)

Pretty obvious he's lost too. Just listen to the tone in his voice.
The cockpit is not the place to be dicking around trying to prove someone a point by allowing a situation to get this out of hand.
 

Gonzo

Well-Known Member
The cockpit is not the place to be dicking around trying to prove someone a point by allowing a situation to get this out of hand.
You are right it shouldn't, but for some people it is. Just read about Western Airlines Flight 2605. The FO tried to show up the CA and ended up killing 72 people.
 

MikeDelta

Well-Known Member
We went over that a lot at OKC. Went over it more at my facility since we work a lot of foggy mornings here.

If I recall the controller had to recert.

Clearing someone to land/take-off with a aircraft unsure of it's position on a foggy day is bad juju.
 

Sunburn

Well-Known Member
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cofPH1y9vuw

Yes the Capt got lost on the ground in the fog, but as soon as United reported someone taking of right over him the ground controller should of first listened to where United was at then when it was clear that they where lost (near the Kilo taxiway) she (Ground) should have advised that the runway was unsafe because there was an aircraft on the runway and immediately attempt to find and redirect United, thankfully USAir was paying attention and did not depart.
 
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