Runway Incursion part IIX

Sorry, RPA crew, but you guys Foxtrot-ed up. Bad instruction, but it was clearly "Cross 4 at J," and read back as such. Pure expectation bias—you can't be cavalier when crossing runways.

That said, ATC error was a contributing factor for sure.

Ugly.
 
Based on the radio calls we heard, maybe there were more, I can see how Brickyard got sucked into that one. Pilot error, but wonder if anyone ever told Brickyard the active runway had changed?

I don't think there was an ATC error however.
 
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Is it part IX (9) or part XII (12):p? Also, I’ve been going into a lot of airports that I am unfamiliar with, I’ve got to say the AMM charts on the Jepp app really help with the SA.
 
fholbert said:
Based on the radio calls we heard, maybe there were more, I can see how Brickyard got sucked into that one. Pilot error, but wonder if anyone ever told Brickyard the active runway had changed?

I don't think there was an ATC error however.
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There most certainly was an ATC error. There is specific phraseology when changing a runway, they were instructed originally to hold short of the runway they crossed at the exact location they crossed it. If there was a configuration change there would have been a broadcast "attention information A is current, departing runway 4," followed by an instruction to RPA, "change to runway 4 + revised instructions." None of that is in this video. It could have been edited out, but more likely, it did not happen. The "runway change" in the video is editorial content. So either one of two things happened; either the controller absentmindedly gave them initial instructions to the wrong runway, and not realizing gave them a crossing clearance for the runway they meant to cross, OR there was in fact a configuration change, but the RPA was never given complete instructions to the new runway of intended departure. Either way the RPAs error is a contributing factor, not a causal one. They could have "broken the chain" if they realized they were crossing a different runway than they were cleared to cross, but the controller set them up.
 
greg1016 said:
There most certainly was an ATC error. There is specific phraseology when changing a runway, they were instructed originally to hold short of the runway they crossed at the exact location they crossed it. If there was a configuration change there would have been a broadcast "attention information A is current, departing runway 4," followed by an instruction to RPA, "change to runway 4 + revised instructions." None of that is in this video. It could have been edited out, but more likely, it did not happen. The "runway change" in the video is editorial content. So either one of two things happened; either the controller absentmindedly gave them initial instructions to the wrong runway, and not realizing gave them a crossing clearance for the runway they meant to cross, OR there was in fact a configuration change, but the RPA was never given complete instructions to the new runway of intended departure. Either way the RPAs error is a contributing factor, not a causal one. They could have "broken the chain" if they realized they were crossing a different runway than they were cleared to cross, but the controller set them up.
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I understand there was a runway change after giving taxi instructions. I’m guessing it was a blanket broadcast and who ever made the video didn’t realize it was critical and edited it out.

ATIS code Victor, altimeter, wind, runway. ​
 
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fholbert said:
I’m guessing it was a blanket broadcast and who ever made the video didn’t realize it was critical.

ATIS code Victor, altimeter, wind, runway. ​
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Yeah that is part of the swiss cheese, but making an ATIS broadcast does not change a runway assignment and there is specific phraseology for doing so. This youtube channel is usually pretty good, so I'd bet if there was an ATIS broadcast they'd have featured it. The editorial [runway change] is just pointing out that the controller initially said 33 and then gave instructions as though they were going to 4. If the controller had changed the runway assignment, the phraseology "change to" should be used followed by new taxi instructions. In this video, there was never a change to, and never a new route, only a crossing at a different runway than they were initially told to hold short of. You physically cannot cross 4 at J if you are holding short of 1 at F
 
Yeah those AMM charts were a revelation when I got to a shop that uses them. Worlds better than anything else.
 
greg1016 said:
There most certainly was an ATC error. There is specific phraseology when changing a runway, they were instructed originally to hold short of the runway they crossed at the exact location they crossed it. If there was a configuration change there would have been a…….. ……….. but the RPA was never given complete instructions to the new runway of intended departure. Either way the RPAs error is a contributing factor, not a causal one. They could have "broken the chain" if they realized they were crossing a different runway than they were cleared to cross, but the controller set them up.
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They were cleared to “cross runway 4 at Juliet”, which was straight ahead. The RPA pilot should have queried, but instead turned right and crossed runway 1 at Foxtrot!

Doesn’t seem to me to be an ATC error….
Also, the tower controller misspoke, RPA did NOT have clearance to cross that runway!
 
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dustoff17 said:
They were cleared to “cross runway 4 at Juliet”, which was straight ahead. The RPA pilot should have queried, but instead turned right and crossed runway 1 at Foxtrot!

Doesn’t seem to me to be an ATC error….
Also, the tower controller misspoke, RPA did NOT have clearance to cross that runway!
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Yes, the RPA should have caught the mistake, but you can't tell anyone to hold short of one runway and then tell them to cross another without prompting them that their runway assignment and taxi instructions have changed. That is on the controller.
 
greg1016 said:
Yes, the RPA should have caught the mistake, but you can't tell anyone to hold short of one runway and then tell them to cross another without prompting them that their runway assignment and taxi instructions have changed. That is on the controller.
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Disagree….
“Cross runway 4 at Juliet” but instead I cross runway 1 at Foxtrot?

Yeah, let‘s rally and blame ATC…

The failure to assign a new runway falls on ATC.
The failure to follow taxi clearance AND the runway incursion falls on the crew!
 
dustoff17 said:
Disagree….
“Cross runway 4 at Juliet” but instead I cross runway 1 at Foxtrot?

Yeah, let‘s rally and blame ATC…

The failure to assign a new runway falls on ATC.
The failure to follow taxi clearance AND the runway incursion falls on the crew!
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I'd like to hear what really happened. I looked on LiveATC.net for an unedited recording. Nothing.

It's possible ATC will get contributing factor in this, but not the blame in it's entirety
 
We don’t abort takeoffs, we reject them.

Also, expectation bias is strong and we need to stay vigilant. It sucks to be led down a primrose path to your own demise but it can and will happen to all of us. As an example, coming back to ORD and the CA briefed 28C and noted we might get sent to 27C. When I checked on with approach he asked if we could accept 27RIGHT and I looked at the captain and he said “sure.”

Then the bunky said “you guys accepted 27R…” and both the captain and I said “what?”
 
dustoff17 said:
Disagree….
“Cross runway 4 at Juliet” but instead I cross runway 1 at Foxtrot?

Yeah, let‘s rally and blame ATC…

The failure to assign a new runway falls on ATC.
The failure to follow taxi clearance AND the runway incursion falls on the crew!
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fholbert said:
I'd like to hear what really happened. I looked on LiveATC.net for an unedited recording. Nothing.

It's possible ATC will get contributing factor in this, but not the blame in it's entirety
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You may disagree but you have it the other way around, ATC will get the causal, RPA will get contributing. It sounds as though there may have been a controller change, but it might just be the radio recording. Taxi instructions must be specific, and that is where the chain starts. The RPA was cleared J, F to RY 33. There is no "change to" or "revised instructions" J crosses 4 but so does F. They were told to hold short of RY 1 at F, then told to cross RY 4 at J, with no indication that their taxi instructions or runway assignment had been changed. If there was in fact a controller change, the briefing could have been incomplete or perhaps it was misunderstood by the relieving controller. In any case, the primary blame goes to the controller who told them to cross one runway when they were last told to hold short of a different runway. Those runways have center lines that are <1300ft apart so both runways can be crossed in one clearance instruction, although I assume the clearance would be cross ry1 and 4 at F, I do not know.

YES the flight crew COULD have prevented this, but it was a bad instruction that CAUSED it.

Even if there had been an ATIS broadcast that was omitted from this video. It is still on the controller to ASSIGN a new runway and issue specific instructions.
 
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