Right seat twotter time?

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
K just want to make sure my understanding is clear:

Had an offer from a guy to ride shotgun in his twin otter flying skydivers.

I can log PIC when i am sole manipulator of the flight controls, because i am rated in cat/class and it is part 91 operations.

Correct?
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
if its a -100 then MTOW = 10,500 lbs.... if its a -300 then MTOW = 12,500 lbs

i dont know which it is.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
re: part 91

doesn't matter

i thought in pt 135 you had to be a required crewmember to get PIC time?

well whatever, either way it works out for me. i might accept this offer and just find a day job till my hours are a bit more attractive. mcdonalds here i come!

what do you guys think? good opportunity or keep lookin?
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
what do you guys think? good opportunity or keep lookin?
Having read other threads regarding your situation, I'd say this would be good. I understand you are having trouble finding a job at your hours and can't afford to CFI, so why not. This wouldn't be the most valuable time be any means, so continue to look for paying true-PIC opportunities. In the mean time though, why not go for it? Might even turn into a job itself down the road.
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
Not at all. Logging PIC is governed by 61.51(e). You won't find any reference to Part 91, 121, or 135 operations, because the same rules apply to everyone.
Yeah, but you'd have to be allowed to operate the plane per the company's OPSPECs and per the appropriate FAR.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
Having read other threads regarding your situation, I'd say this would be good. I understand you are having trouble finding a job at your hours and can't afford to CFI, so why not. This wouldn't be the most valuable time be any means, so continue to look for paying true-PIC opportunities. In the mean time though, why not go for it? Might even turn into a job itself down the road.

Yeah, thats kindof what I am thinking. Bad current market, low hours, lots of qualified pilots, might should just take what I can get and suck it up and work a crappy day job for a while. And while it might not be the "most valuable" time, its still multi turbine time, and time I can legally put in the book to contribute toward finding a paying gig in the future.
 

tgrayson

New Member
Yeah, but you'd have to be allowed to operate the plane per the company's OPSPECs and per the appropriate FAR.
He didn't ask that question, he asked if he were the sole manipulator, could he log it. Whether he was legal or not to manipulate the controls is a separate question and isn't a factor in logging the time.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
He didn't ask that question, he asked if he were the sole manipulator, could he log it. Whether he was legal or not to manipulate the controls is a separate question and isn't a factor in logging the time.

hahah sorry i really did LOL reading that. i mean yes, i understand the distinction but yeesh, sometimes the legal-ese we have to decipher is maddening! :laff:
 

MikeFavinger

Hubschrauber Flieger
tgrayson said:
He didn't ask that question, he asked if he were the sole manipulator, could he log it. Whether he was legal or not to manipulate the controls is a separate question and isn't a factor in logging the time.
I gotchya. I thought it was appropriate for me to add some additional info so he didn't think it was okay to hop in the right seat of a part 135 operated plane and think that it would be okay.

You're right though, you could legally log PIC per 61.51 while you simultaneously illegally manipulate the controls. ;)
 

Radu38J

Well-Known Member
what do you guys think? good opportunity or keep lookin?
Are you kidding? Free PIC in a multi, when you've been looking for a job for quite a while ? I've seen you post for a while that you can't get a job because of the low hours, so here is your chance to build some valuable time. I'm sure it doesn't take too much time, so you can still get that other day job, but in the mean time, you are finally building some time and making yourself more marketable. You'll get a paying flying job when you find one, but this is not a reason to not take this till you can do better.
 

tgrayson

New Member
I thought it was appropriate for me to add some additional info so he didn't think it was okay to hop in the right seat of a part 135 operated plane and think that it would be okay.
Very appropriate. I just wanted to ensure all readers know that 61.51(e) is the alpha and the omega regarding the logging of PIC time. You have to beat this concept in relentlessly for it to stick. Any statement that can be misinterpreted to say otherwise, will be.:rolleyes:
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
Are you kidding? Free PIC in a multi, when you've been looking for a job for quite a while ? I've seen you post for a while that you can't get a job because of the low hours, so here is your chance to build some valuable time. I'm sure it doesn't take too much time, so you can still get that other day job, but in the mean time, you are finally building some time and making yourself more marketable. You'll get a paying flying job when you find one, but this is not a reason to not take this till you can do better.

yeah true. people do pay a lot of money for multi time.

looks like im going back to austin again!
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
to ensure all readers know that 61.51(e) is the alpha and the omega regarding the logging of PIC time.
What still confuses readers on this point is when airline people say they can't log PIC when they are actually SIC, what they mean is that they can't log PIC in the company log, but they can log sole manipulator time as PIC in their personal logbook.

The company log sheets do not have to mirror your personal logbook.
 

Avalon781ML

Well-Known Member
What still confuses readers on this point is when airline people say they can't log PIC when they are actually SIC, what they mean is that they can't log PIC in the company log, but they can log sole manipulator time as PIC in their personal logbook.

The company log sheets do not have to mirror your personal logbook.
Unless company opspecs prohibit such....
 

mjg407

Well-Known Member
As long as it doesn't require a type rating, yes.



doesn't matter
From what I gathered talking to the POI from an airline and a previous post, that if the aircraft type certificate or company requires two pilots, and the other pilot is not typed in the aircraft (PIC/SIC) he can not log PIC time, even when sole manipulator of the controls, unless the PNF is the company check airman.

If a type rating is required, and the pilot has a SIC limitation on his rating, then he cannot log PIC for sole manipulator time. Here's a clip from FAA notice 8000.351 (Procedures for the Second-In-Command Pilot Type Rating). Although it's now expired, it listed a variety of Q&As when the SIC ratings were first announced.


QUESTION:

How would a pilot who holds the appropriate SIC pilot type rating and is the sole manipulator of the controls log the flight time? The pilot holds a B737 SIC pilot type rating. This SIC pilot is the flying pilot (the sole manipulator of the controls) for this leg of the flight. Does the pilot log the flight time as PIC or SIC?

ANSWER:
Ref. § 61.51(f)(1). The SIC pilot may only log the time as SIC flight time. The pilot is not qualified as a PIC in the Boeing 737 and may not log the time as PIC flight time.
 

TXaviator

Well-Known Member
your reply is totally unrelated unfortunately. we're talking about a twin otter. no type rating. you hold the yoke = you are PIC.


From what I gathered talking to the POI from an airline and a previous post, that if the aircraft type certificate or company requires two pilots, and the other pilot is not typed in the aircraft (PIC/SIC) he can not log PIC time, even when sole manipulator of the controls, unless the PNF is the company check airman.

If a type rating is required, and the pilot has a SIC limitation on his rating, then he cannot log PIC for sole manipulator time. Here's a clip from FAA notice 8000.351 (Procedures for the Second-In-Command Pilot Type Rating). Although it's now expired, it listed a variety of Q&As when the SIC ratings were first announced.


QUESTION:

How would a pilot who holds the appropriate SIC pilot type rating and is the sole manipulator of the controls log the flight time? The pilot holds a B737 SIC pilot type rating. This SIC pilot is the flying pilot (the sole manipulator of the controls) for this leg of the flight. Does the pilot log the flight time as PIC or SIC?

ANSWER:
Ref. § 61.51(f)(1). The SIC pilot may only log the time as SIC flight time. The pilot is not qualified as a PIC in the Boeing 737 and may not log the time as PIC flight time.
 
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