Returning to GA and Proficiency

Richman

That's "Lord Garth" to you
guess I’ve been doing it wrong treating it as a proficiency maneuver for students. Ah, the watered down new ways of teaching..... :)
Agreed. That's some serious weak sauce right there.

I used to take students up, to 6k or so, fully stall the airplane and have them hold the yoke all the way back while controlling flight with the rudder.

A 152 will just sort of bobble along with a not-really-large sink rate, and is completely controllable as long as you keep the wings level and don't overdo the rudder. After 10 minutes or so, they UNDERSTOOD what was going on. It was great to see the light come on.

When we moved them onto the 172 and PA-28, we'd modify it slightly so students learned that most airplanes weren't like the 152, and they understood how it would bite someone.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Not really. Treating it as a proficiency maneuver vs checking a box is about the instructor, not "new ways of teaching." It's always been like that.
thats my point. It should always be like that, yet I’ve run into instructors who aren’t comfortable with full stalls. It’s interesting to see.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
Agreed. That's some serious weak sauce right there.

I used to take students up, to 6k or so, fully stall the airplane and have them hold the yoke all the way back while controlling flight with the rudder.

A 152 will just sort of bobble along with a not-really-large sink rate, and is completely controllable as long as you keep the wings level and don't overdo the rudder. After 10 minutes or so, they UNDERSTOOD what was going on. It was great to see the light come on.

When we moved them onto the 172 and PA-28, we'd modify it slightly so students learned that most airplanes weren't like the 152, and they understood how it would bite someone.
Used to run the T-38 into a stall demo, where it just sits there with no nose break, but with the proverbial elephants dancing on the wings and the VVI pegged at a severe descent rate. Gear up was fairly straightforward with only 6 degrees rudder throw. Gear down with now 24-ish degrees of throw, and you had to be careful on the pedals. -38 doesn’t like spinning.

straight wing is more straightforward, but I agree, can still bite you.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
Agreed. That's some serious weak sauce right there.

I used to take students up, to 6k or so, fully stall the airplane and have them hold the yoke all the way back while controlling flight with the rudder.
That's a really good eye-opener for them. I like that one.

I also like making them fly with just their feet once trimmed out, and doing hands-off steep turns. The confidence they gain is really rewarding.
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
That's a really good eye-opener for them. I like that one.

I also like making them fly with just their feet once trimmed out, and doing hands-off steep turns. The confidence they gain is really rewarding.
How do you maintain altitude in a steep turn hands off?
 

knot4u

Repeat Offender
I won’t sign anyone off to solo until they can do a negative 4-G inverted pushover with a MIG-28.
The CFI that finally got me through to my PPL had me clean absolutely everything not required out of the mighty 152 before we went to intentionally spin it. We'd talked about it and it wasn't required, but I was actually excited and told him I wanted to experience it. All of these years later the acronym is still burned in PARE. I miss flying sometimes.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
How do you maintain altitude in a steep turn hands off?
Easy - trim. Power settings vary, but if you start out around 90kts trimmed straight and level, it'll work. Roll into the bank and as you pass through 30 degrees, bump in a couple hundred RPM and drop your hand to the trim wheel - two turns nose up, continuing to bank to 45-50 degrees. If you do it right, you can take your hands off the yoke and she'll hold airspeed and altitude easily. Very small corrections.

I don't teach it hands off right away. My students who have a tendency to overcontrol get this lesson pretty quickly though, and that's when the light goes on that 1) trim is your friend and 2) three fingers are pretty much all you need to fly a 172.
 

Maximilian_Jenius

Super User
Easy - trim. Power settings vary, but if you start out around 90kts trimmed straight and level, it'll work. Roll into the bank and as you pass through 30 degrees, bump in a couple hundred RPM and drop your hand to the trim wheel - two turns nose up, continuing to bank to 45-50 degrees. If you do it right, you can take your hands off the yoke and she'll hold airspeed and altitude easily. Very small corrections.

I don't teach it hands off right away. My students who have a tendency to overcontrol get this lesson pretty quickly though, and that's when the light goes on that 1) trim is your friend and 2) three fingers are pretty much all you need to fly a 172.
Never done the hands-off method and always held a lot of backpressure in the turn!
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
thats my point. It should always be like that, yet I’ve run into instructors who aren’t comfortable with full stalls. It’s interesting to see.
You remind me of a stall story. I was giving a flight review to an instructor - not a newbie and not a time builder. I asked him to do a power off stall. At the point of the (full) stall, he moved the stick forward so aggressively, it was like coming over the top on a roller coaster. I actually rose out of my seat.
So I asked him, "Do you find your students are afraid of stalls?"
He: "Yes."
Me: "I'm not surprised."
 

Maximilian_Jenius

Super User
Yeah. That's how I learned, too. The flight school I work for now teaches the trim technique. I have to say that I prefer it.
I used both a combination trim and back pressure for commercal steep turns. Before this thread, I had never even heard of hands-off steep turns. Mind blown.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
I used both a combination trim and back pressure for commercal steep turns. Before this thread, I had never even heard of hands-off steep turns. Mind blown.
You still have to deal with the overbanking tendency, but you can handle that with rudder pressure.

A lot of folks haven't heard of it. That's because the use of trim in steep turns is one of those "things" in aviation CFIs disagree about. One of the goals of steep turns is to learn how the airplane reacts to the diversion of a large amount of lift to the horizontal component. Part of that goal is the pilot feeling it and dealing with it, which is removed by using trim. But no reason not to show both because there's also a great, "here's what trim does" lesson.
 

Screaming_Emu

Joe Conventional
This, the "falling leaf" stall is my favorite maneuver to teach a student or a flight review trainee.
I liked using that to show a student that reducing the AOA is the ONLY thing that will break the stall. Start with a power off stall, then add power to try to recover, nothing changes until you reduce AOA. Then do another one and recover without adding power. It took a bit more pitching down, but you could see the light bulb click.

Another thing I enjoyed was taking them to Ocean City, MD for their night cross country. After we departed to come back, we'd fly out over the ocean with land behind us. I'd cover their instruments and hav them try to maintain straight and level. Showing them how you could get disoriented on a beautiful clear night was a lot more effective than "JFK junior blah blah blah"

I really did enjoy instructing.
 

killbilly

Vocals, Lyrics, Triangle, Washboard, Kittens
You still have to deal with the overbanking tendency, but you can handle that with rudder pressure.

A lot of folks haven't heard of it. That's because the use of trim in steep turns is one of those "things" in aviation CFIs disagree about. One of the goals of steep turns is to learn how the airplane reacts to the diversion of a large amount of lift to the horizontal component. Part of that goal is the pilot feeling it and dealing with it, which is removed by using trim. But no reason not to show both because there's also a great, "here's what trim does" lesson.
It also helps some newbies gain confidence early on. "See? The airplane isn't going to fall out of the sky even in a steep turn."

The other thing using the trim does is help the pilot understand how diverting the lift can increase/decrease altitude because they can focus on the bank angle changes without having to focus so much on the backpressure.

Like you said - both ways helps the learner.
 

MikeD

Administrator
Staff member
I liked using that to show a student that reducing the AOA is the ONLY thing that will break the stall. Start with a power off stall, then add power to try to recover, nothing changes until you reduce AOA. Then do another one and recover without adding power. It took a bit more pitching down, but you could see the light bulb click.

Another thing I enjoyed was taking them to Ocean City, MD for their night cross country. After we departed to come back, we'd fly out over the ocean with land behind us. I'd cover their instruments and hav them try to maintain straight and level. Showing them how you could get disoriented on a beautiful clear night was a lot more effective than "JFK junior blah blah blah"

I really did enjoy instructing.
Similar, I take my examinees and students out to the complete desert darkness southwest of CGZ, pointed southwest during the night unaided portion of training and checkrides, and do the unusual attitude training there. Nothing to use but the instruments. Approaches/holding are done with NVGs down, but turned off, as a fairly effective view limiting device instead of having a separate hood.
 

NovemberEcho

Dergs favorite member
Another thing I enjoyed was taking them to Ocean City, MD for their night cross country. After we departed to come back, we'd fly out over the ocean with land behind us. I'd cover their instruments and hav them try to maintain straight and level. Showing them how you could get disoriented on a beautiful clear night was a lot more effective than "JFK junior blah blah blah"
fkying over open ocean on a moonless night is eye opening of just how dark it can get.
 
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