Requiring a Dispatcher to work Past 10 hours

[Squirrel]

This came up in our office and was curious what the policy is in other offices. Say there is a last minute sick call and no one to cover it. 121.465 says (2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.

How does your office interpret that and how long after the 10 hours do you stop doing releases and just flight monitor?

 

[CPZ9900]

Well, if your only scheduled for 10 hours, you can work past those ten to cover a sick call, IROP, etc... They just can't schedule you more than 10, I don't think there is a limit on how much you can work past the scheduled 10, unscheduled..... but you must be given 8 hours off at the end of the shift regardless.. Lets say in a 24 hour period you may be scheduled or have picked up a shift etc... 0000-1000, you must be given 8 hours of rest before you can work the next shift starting at 1800. So you're technically scheduled more than 10 hours in the 24 hour period, but you have had your 8 hours of rest before and after the 10 hours of durty.

 

[DispatcherSam]

Myself personally I have worked 14 hrs while being scheduled for 10 due to circumstances beyond control.

 

[McCrosky]

cancel all departing flights, divert all airborne flights to nearest airport. Go home on time.

 

[Squirrel]

My personal opinion but anything past 10 hours and a dispatcher shouldn't be required to dispatch. Flight monitor yes but those flights should be landing in 2 hours if not management needs to find someone to relieve you. After that fatigue hits in.

 

[pljenkins]

My personal opinion but anything past 10 hours and a dispatcher shouldn't be required to dispatch. Flight monitor yes but those flights should be landing in 2 hours if not management needs to find someone to relieve you. After that fatigue hits in.

It's not always a situation that can be controlled by management. You're sitting at work and your relief crashes into a tree on the way in. Are you just going to up and leave at the 10 hour mark?

 

[Squirrel]

It's not always a situation that can be controlled by management. You're sitting at work and your relief crashes into a tree on the way in. Are you just going to up and leave at the 10 hour mark?

If they try to force me to work another 4-8 hours yes. I could see staying 2 hours but also most offices have more than 1 dispatcher working there at a time.

 

[Phil Schuyler]

This came up in our office and was curious what the policy is in other offices. Say there is a last minute sick call and no one to cover it. 121.465 says (2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.

How does your office interpret that and how long after the 10 hours do you stop doing releases and just flight monitor?

I have seen it handled a number of ways. In one case, the dispatcher parsed out his flights to the remaining desks. In another case, the dispatcher elected to stay on duty for a few more hours until he was released out. In one extreme case, during a blizzard, two dispatchers were on duty for essentially a double shift. They couldn't get out, and and no one else could get in.

I think the important thing is to make an honest assessment of your fitness for duty. If it's been a quiet day, and you feel up to it, I think no one would fault you for hanging in there for a few more hours. On the other hand, if it's been a stressful day and you're tired and not as attentive as you need to be, it's your responsibility to say "stop."

 

[BoilerOps]

I've done an 18 hour shift and a 20 hour shift. Regardless of where any Dispatcher personally sits on this issue I think it's important to realize that the spirit of the regulation is to prevent Certificate Holders from improper manpower scheduling (and, by extension, improper staffing).

That being said we as Dispatchers should realize that everyone benefits (Dispatchers, Airlines, Passengers, Flight Crew, etc.) from us being able to work more than 10 hours but not being able to be scheduled more than 10 hours (exactly as it stands). I personally feel that it is EXTREMELY important that nothing bigger be made of the issue.

 

[deltabobo]

There was a certain Cactus Express carrier where a mgr interpreted 121.465 to allow him to work dispatchers essentially double shifts because when a sick call was received, he wouldn't make an attempt to find a replacement. The Feds vehemently disagreed with his assessment.

 

[Hecklers2002]

Essentially once the reasoning is beyond the operator's control which in this case a sick call is; Then there are a few ways it can be handled. If you have more than one dispatcher, you can pass it to the other dispatcher so long as that dispatcher thinks that they can maintain operational control given the double workload.

If it's a one man operation then you CAN elect to flight follow your active flights and NOT release anymore flights. Essentially if you do release anymore flights, it's illegal if you know for a fact that it's going to be over your 10 hour duty and nobody is going to cover your flight after that 10 hour duty.

All the while the operator should be making an attempt to find a replacement for that sick call. But you are NOT required to work beyond 10 hours. However you are still legally responsible for active flights under your watch.

 

[CPZ9900]

Essentially once the reasoning is beyond the operator's control which in this case a sick call is; Then there are a few ways it can be handled. If you have more than one dispatcher, you can pass it to the other dispatcher so long as that dispatcher thinks that they can maintain operational control given the double workload.

If it's a one man operation then you CAN elect to flight follow your active flights and NOT release anymore flights. Essentially if you do release anymore flights, it's illegal if you know for a fact that it's going to be over your 10 hour duty and nobody is going to cover your flight after that 10 hour duty.

All the while the operator should be making an attempt to find a replacement for that sick call. But you are NOT required to work beyond 10 hours. However you are still legally responsible for active flights under your watch.

I disagree with this. You can't be scheduled more than 10, but nowhere does it say you are not required to work once you hit 10:01 hours. Also, nowhere is it stated that it is illegal for you to work over your 10 hour day, unscheduled. IROP, sick call, etc...

 

[Hecklers2002]

I disagree with this. You can't be scheduled more than 10, but nowhere does it say you are not required to work once you hit 10:01 hours. Also, nowhere is it stated that it is illegal for you to work over your 10 hour day, unscheduled. IROP, sick call, etc...

Touché! No where does it say you are required to dispatch another release past 10:01 with no relief planned.

 

[F9DXER]

As the reg states - also note the part in bold. When ATA shut its doors, there were dispatchers on duty - not getting paid because of this regulation. Feds don't care if you are not getting paid. So in theory, if you just released a 15 hour flight and no one could or would take it you might just be on duty for a long time. I have never seen it happen but it is something to think about.

121.465Aircraft dispatcher duty time limitations: Domestic and flag operations.

(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations shall establish the daily duty period for a dispatcher so that it begins at a time that allows him or her to become thoroughly familiar with existing and anticipated weather conditions along the route before he or she dispatches any airplane. He or she shall remain on duty until each airplane dispatched by him or her has completed its flight, or has gone beyond his or her jurisdiction, or until he or she is relieved by another qualified dispatcher.

(b) Except in cases where circumstances or emergency conditions beyond the control of the certificate holder require otherwise—(1) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may schedule a dispatcher for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty;(2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.
(3) Each dispatcher must be relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days or the equivalent thereof within any calendar month.(c) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, a certificate holder conducting flag operations may, if authorized by the Administrator, schedule an aircraft dispatcher at a duty station outside of the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia, for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty in a 24-hour period if that aircraft dispatcher is relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least eight hours during each 24-hour period.

 

[Squirrel]

As the reg states - also note the part in bold. When ATA shut its doors, there were dispatchers on duty - not getting paid because of this regulation. Feds don't care if you are not getting paid. So in theory, if you just released a 15 hour flight and no one could or would take it you might just be on duty for a long time. I have never seen it happen but it is something to think about.

121.465Aircraft dispatcher duty time limitations: Domestic and flag operations.

(a) Each certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations shall establish the daily duty period for a dispatcher so that it begins at a time that allows him or her to become thoroughly familiar with existing and anticipated weather conditions along the route before he or she dispatches any airplane. He or she shall remain on duty until each airplane dispatched by him or her has completed its flight, or has gone beyond his or her jurisdiction, or until he or she is relieved by another qualified dispatcher.

(b) Except in cases where circumstances or emergency conditions beyond the control of the certificate holder require otherwise—(1) No certificate holder conducting domestic or flag operations may schedule a dispatcher for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty;(2) If a dispatcher is scheduled for more than 10 hours of duty in 24 consecutive hours, the certificate holder shall provide him or her a rest period of at least eight hours at or before the end of 10 hours of duty.
(3) Each dispatcher must be relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least 24 consecutive hours during any seven consecutive days or the equivalent thereof within any calendar month.(c) Notwithstanding paragraphs (a) and (b) of this section, a certificate holder conducting flag operations may, if authorized by the Administrator, schedule an aircraft dispatcher at a duty station outside of the 48 contiguous States and the District of Columbia, for more than 10 consecutive hours of duty in a 24-hour period if that aircraft dispatcher is relieved of all duty with the certificate holder for at least eight hours during each 24-hour period.

Yes which can be taken as you have to flight Monitor it but don't have to release another flight.

 

[F9DXER]

This is true, not denying that.

 

[CPZ9900]

This is where a union contract or a solid company policy comes into play... do you have specific language saying that at 10:01 the dispatcher shall not release any additional flights. The FARs do not prohibit such activity as long as it was unscheduled. It's not a optimal situation, but on an IROP day or due to other unforeseen circumstances, just telling the company you refuse to release any more aircraft when it hits 10:01 probably isn't going to cut it as the regulation doesn't state this is "illegal."

Yes which can be taken as you have to flight Monitor it but don't have to release another flight.

Also doesn't say that its illegal to continue to dispatch.

 

[PlaneFun]

So can someone clarify for me... Sometimes we have flex night schedules, where flights go past midnight. They leave the dispatchers on the scheduled normal shift 2-midnight. When you walk into the door they inform you it's a flex night and you will need to stay past midnight. Am I obligated to stay? It would be nice if they scheduled it and let us know in advance. Which is never the case it plays out as mentioned above.

 

[dxBrian]

Are you at a Part 121 Flag or Domestic "scheduled" air carrier? If so, it seems to me that your management is violating the reg with a "flex night".

For Part 121 Supplemental, there are essentially no restrictions.

 

[pljenkins]

So can someone clarify for me... Sometimes we have flex night schedules, where flights go past midnight. They leave the dispatchers on the scheduled normal shift 2-midnight. When you walk into the door they inform you it's a flex night and you will need to stay past midnight. Am I obligated to stay? It would be nice if they scheduled it and let us know in advance. Which is never the case it plays out as mentioned above.

If you are working for a domestic or international 121 carrier I would guarantee your FSDO would take a very dim view of this. His interpretation would be that this is scheduling beyond 10 hours by proxy since your employer is aware of and is intentionally not resolving the scheduling issue.

Now as to your obligation I would say this. Per the FARs a dispatcher must be on duty any time an aircraft under his jurisdiction is in flight. What I see a lot of here is "hey I'm gonna stop releasing flights and in effect become a flight follower". Wrong answer. When you relieved the previous dispatcher you took over authority of those flights and became the dispatcher in authority of those flights, regardless of who initially released it. As such, refusing to function as a dispatcher should those flights require it is a dereliction of duty in the eyes of the Feds. So in direct answer to your question, yes you are obliged to stay until your flights terminate or you hand them off to another QUALIFIED dispatcher.