Requirements for the Multi Commercial versus the Add On?

cfii2007

New Member
I was wondering what the difference is between the Multi Commercial (initial) versus the Single Commercial (initial)?
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
interesting...and i was wonderng what's the diff between a Big Mac and a Hoagie Hog...

i guess you mean the hours difference, i guess, well with the initial multi commercial, you need 20 hours multi, with the add-on, it is proficiency, which averages 10-15 hours.
 

Old Dominion Flyer

Well-Known Member
I was wondering what the difference is between the Multi Commercial (initial) versus the Single Commercial (initial)?

Regardles of which commercial license you complete first, it must be in a complex aircraft. If you do the CSEL first then you'd need to use an arrow or something similar. Then when you do the CMEL it'd be tough to find a twin that wasn't complex so you don't really have a choice there. I completed my CMEL first and when I did the CSEL I wasn't required to use a complex aircraft b/c I had used a complex aircraft for the CMEL. Is this the sort of difference you're wondering about?
 

cfii2007

New Member
Kinda....but more specifically if the Multi is done first, do the VFR day/night X-C and long 300 NM X-C have to be done in the twin?
 

noeflys84

Well-Known Member
There are several factors you have to look at
1.) You almost have to have multi private to get PIC time. To find a multi to solo these days is pretty rear because of insurance.
2.) The cost of multi is way more expensive then a single.
3.) The multi plane usually has a lot more maintaince to deal with.
4.) You only need 10 hours in a complex airplane
5.) etc..................
You can go both ways with this one depending if your training is part 141 or 61 and what cert. and rating you hold.
 

cfii2007

New Member
Thanks....I am confused with 61.127 and 61.129....specifically the "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor on board" referring to the 300 NM X-C.

How can the student (who is not ME rated) log PIC time to meet the 300 NM cross country requirement?

Also can the 2 hour VFR day 100NM straight line be satisfied in the 300 NM flight..with the instructor on board?

The add on requirements are pretty clear in the FAR's....its the initial Multi that throws me for a loop.
 

mooneyguy

been around forever
Thanks....I am confused with 61.127 and 61.129....specifically the "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor on board" referring to the 300 NM X-C.

How can the student (who is not ME rated) log PIC time to meet the 300 NM cross country requirement?

Also can the 2 hour VFR day 100NM straight line be satisfied in the 300 NM flight..with the instructor on board?

The add on requirements are pretty clear in the FAR's....its the initial Multi that throws me for a loop.
Well lets through some fire on this one too, Im sure this will spark a debate. Re-read the regs again. The 100nm day and night SPECIFICALLY state MULTI-ENGINE airplane. The Long X-C and the 10 night take-off and landings at a controlled field DO NOT state multi-engine.
 

tgrayson

New Member
The Long X-C and the 10 night take-off and landings at a controlled field DO NOT state multi-engine.
Actually, it does. Those paragraphs are under the 10 hours of solo in a ME:

(4) 10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time performing the duties of pilot in command in a multiengine airplane with an authorized instructor (either of which may be credited towards the flight time requirement in paragraph (b)(2) of this section), on the areas of operation listed in § 61.127(b)(2) of this part that includes at least—
(i) One cross-country flight of not less than 300 nautical miles total distance with landings at a minimum of three points, one of which is a straightline distance of at least 250 nautical miles from the original departure point. However, if this requirement is being met in Hawaii, the longest segment need only have a straight-line distance of at least 150 nautical miles; and
(ii) 5 hours in night VFR conditions with 10 takeoffs and 10 landings each landing involving a flight with a traffic pattern) at an airport with an operating control tower.
 

tgrayson

New Member
How can the student (who is not ME rated) log PIC time to meet the 300 NM cross country requirement?
He can't. There is a special condition in this paragraph that allows the student to "perform the duties of pilot-in-command." This is NOT pilot-in-command time, but it can be credited towards the PIC time requirement for this certificate.

Also can the 2 hour VFR day 100NM straight line be satisfied in the 300 NM flight..with the instructor on board?
No. The training on the two flights is different. Remember that the purpose of this is to create a reasonable substitute for the unobtainable solo time; if you combined it with regular dual, it would basically be waiving the requirement. In what is now an unofficial document, the FAA has said that the type of training provided on the "performing the duties" flight is CRM type training. When filling out the 8710, the old FAQs said put this time under PIC on the form.
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
Thanks....I am confused with 61.127 and 61.129....specifically the "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor on board" referring to the 300 NM X-C.

How can the student (who is not ME rated) log PIC time to meet the 300 NM cross country requirement?

Also can the 2 hour VFR day 100NM straight line be satisfied in the 300 NM flight..with the instructor on board?

The add on requirements are pretty clear in the FAR's....its the initial Multi that throws me for a loop.
This is a good example of the usual misunderstanding of FAR 61.129(b)(4).
It does not say "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor...", it says, "10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time in a multiengine airplane performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor..."

In that context, the 10 hours should be performed as if they were solo.

You are 'substituting' the solo hours with this clause that permits the instructor to be on board while practicing solo.

So don't even think about double-dipping and doing a dual training requirement during this 10 hours.
 

cfii2007

New Member
This is a good example of the usual misunderstanding of FAR 61.129(b)(4).
It does not say "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor...", it says, "10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time in a multiengine airplane performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor..."

In that context, the 10 hours should be performed as if they were solo.

You are 'substituting' the solo hours with this clause that permits the instructor to be on board while practicing solo.

So don't even think about double-dipping and doing a dual training requirement during this 10 hours.
So how can the student log solo if they are not flying by themselves (and not rated in a twin for that matter)?

If they perform the duties of PIC with an authorized instructor on board (this is what most students do) is there an additional endorsement required in the logbook that gives them PIC acting abilities???
 

cfii2007

New Member
This is a good example of the usual misunderstanding of FAR 61.129(b)(4).
It does not say "10 hours of solo or PIC with an instructor...", it says, "10 hours of solo flight time in a multiengine airplane or 10 hours of flight time in a multiengine airplane performing the duties of pilot in command with an authorized instructor..."

In that context, the 10 hours should be performed as if they were solo.

You are 'substituting' the solo hours with this clause that permits the instructor to be on board while practicing solo.

So don't even think about double-dipping and doing a dual training requirement during this 10 hours.


Ahhh.....it does make sense now. So how does the MEI log this time in their logbook?
 

nosehair

Well-Known Member
An instructor is not always 'instructing' on every flight. Some flights, even in the student-to-private phase of training should be with the instructor just evaluating the student's perfomance and judgement when he is acting as PIC. The student can't log it as PIC, and the instructor has not said a word, but it is training and the instructor is responsible and should brief, or be briefed by the student-acting-as-PIC, and de-brief/ critique the student after the flight, so it is a dual flight.

It is an exception: It is dual time that can be credited towards the required solo time, but it is not PIC time.

Like the simulator time that can be credited towards the total time required for the Commercial Certificate, but it is not flight time.
 

Baronpilot244

Killick Stoker
I did my ME Comm as an initial (ha ha, no chandelles or lazy 8's for me!)
I wasn't permitted to do the solo portion in the twin without a CFI in there due to insurance. So I had to perform the duties of PIC. - It must have been fine because the DpE never made mention of it and he went through my logbook with a fine tooth comb.

Thinking back it was a good way to go even though it was expensive - by the time i was done I had over 40 hours of multi and the DpE said it was a refreshing change to see someone fly the airplane who was comfortable with it!

One of the most enjoyable rides I ever did - apart from the Comm SE add-on which was a blast!

BP244
 
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