Really starting to doubt

middies10

middies10

Well-Known Member
This fall, I am starting school at UND for Commercial Aviation and Air Traffic Control. (I do not want this thread to discuss why UND is good or bad). I already have my PPL, so I am enrolled in the test course. Anyway......The program cost has now gone up to 60K for all the ratings and im having doubts. I feel like this bill that requires the 1500hrs for the FO would actually benefit the aviation colleges such as UND or ERAU. It may end up being the only way to get into flying before 1500hrs. My problem is this, I am the type of guy that wants to have a family and be successful. I can not describe my passion for aviation in words. I feel like I was born to do it. I just feel like putting down 60K to do something that I love is questionable. As a pilot, it is proven to be harder to maintain a family and make a good living until you have had at least 20yrs rising through seniority. As ATC, you make a great living, the employment outlook is great, and I feel there will always be a need for ATC. My worry is that if I drop Commercial Aviation, then if I screw up on the AT-SAT or something to get into ATC, my whole 4 years have been a waste. ATC was originally meant to be my fall back from commercial aviation. Sorry for the incoherent rambling, but I just want your guys opinion on this matter. :rolleyes:
 
Tough call brother. You can always continue to fly on the side while you work out the ATC job. No one can give you the right answer unfortunately. You are going to have to make a gut call and go with it. I and some other members went through the military for our flight training and earning hours toward bigger ratings. 60K is a ton of money for a career where the starting pay is $20 or so average first year pay..... True it goes up but it takes a long time......

Clear as mud?
 
I may just be very frugal, but I can't see myself spending thousands of dollars for flying at this point in my life. I'd rather actually invest in my future by starting up an IRA at 19 years old, than to start spending money on something that has an unclear path. You could say that I guess I don't have a great enough passion wheras some people may take out 100K+ for this aviation career, I simply am not willing to do it. Do the benefits outweigh the costs? That is a personal question each answers differently.
 
middies10 said:
This fall, I am starting school at UND for Commercial Aviation and Air Traffic Control. (I do not want this thread to discuss why UND is good or bad). I already have my PPL, so I am enrolled in the test course. Anyway......The program cost has now gone up to 60K for all the ratings and im having doubts. I feel like this bill that requires the 1500hrs for the FO would actually benefit the aviation colleges such as UND or ERAU. It may end up being the only way to get into flying before 1500hrs.
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Let me look into my crystal ball here.

No one knows what the aviation employment environment will be like in a few years. It tends to be a feast or famine type of business.

The 1500 hour rule should make almost no difference to you. Historically, you would not have been hired without a few thousand hours at most airlines in the past. Even without it, you still need more hours to be competitive now anyway. And for what it is worth, a lot of my friends have that much time from part time instructing and their own pleasure flying.

It isn't a race.
 
mojo6911 said:
Even that is an unclear path. You don't know what the market will do.
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True, but taking into account the gains will be on average 8% a year, I have at least something to look forward to in 40 years. If the market doesn't provide any gains during that time, we all are doomed. To me it's a better investment, to a lot others it isn't.
 
60k was too rich for my blood, so I found a way to do it at a lower cost and to get a far better value out of my investment.

Perhaps you should enlist in one of the services, make a livable wage, save some money, pay for flight training with cash or a very modest loan (< 20k), use the GI Bill to pay for college...

Many have done just that, and are carrying on fine middle class lifestyles while flying.
 
One thing if I may add, and this is not to pick on any of the college program guys\gals, but they are all about airline. You mention the 1500hr rule for the airlines, take a step back and LOOK at all of aviation. You say you love aviation, well there's A LOT more to it than being in the right seat of a CRJ. If at some point thats what you want, then by all means go for it, but if all you're doing is dropping 60k to be an airline pilot, you may be very disappointed, especially in today's market. That doesn't mean though, that there aren't other flying opportunities out there.
 
surreal1221 said:
60k was too rich for my blood, so I found a way to do it at a lower cost and to get a far better value out of my investment.

Perhaps you should enlist in one of the services, make a livable wage, save some money, pay for flight training with cash or a very modest loan (< 20k), use the GI Bill to pay for college...

Many have done just that, and are carrying on fine middle class lifestyles while flying.
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Good advice here in my opinion.
 
there is more than one way to skin this cat, its not 60k or nothing. I certianly wouldnt go for it right now with these doubts, it doesn't mean you can't sign on the dotted line later. I have a similar feeling to flying as you describe, but here I am almost 10 years after starting training and im working only 3-4 months out of the year as a pilot by choice, for the same reasons that you are concerned about (family and friends, etc.) I can say from experience that having loans and ratings does not make moving away and being a transient any more appealing, just more compelling. There is no rush to get all of your ratings, if you have the private you are still able to log hours and not be up at night thinking about your loans.
good luck.
 
flyeagle111 said:
True, but taking into account the gains will be on average 8% a year, I have at least something to look forward to in 40 years. If the market doesn't provide any gains during that time, we all are doomed. To me it's a better investment, to a lot others it isn't.
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I agree that it is a better investment than a 60k flight training loan, but let's say you reach age 50 with 200k in your IRA fund and the market drops 30%, which is what happened to a lot of people recently. Now you have 140k in the bank. Even if the market were to go back up 30%, you only have 182k left in the bank, for a net loss of 9%.

A lot of people don't realize that when your money is tied up in investments, they always have the potential to go down.

The Dow Jones has been around for only 114 years, which is a TINY sample size to determine the average return over a 46 year investment, without even factoring in variables.

I'm not criticizing your methods, saving and investing at age 19 will get you on a better path than most, but just be aware that no one can predict what the market will do.
 
mojo6911 said:
I agree that it is a better investment than a 60k flight training loan, but let's say you reach age 50 with 200k in your IRA fund and the market drops 30%, which is what happened to a lot of people recently. Now you have 140k in the bank. Even if the market were to go back up 30%, you only have 182k left in the bank, for a net loss of 9%.

A lot of people don't realize that when your money is tied up in investments, they always have the potential to go down.

The Dow Jones has been around for only 114 years, which is a TINY sample size to determine the average return over a 46 year investment, without even factoring in variables.

I'm not criticizing your methods, saving and investing at age 19 will get you on a better path than most, but just be aware that no one can predict what the market will do.
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I just disagree with the idea that IRA is a better "investment" than flight training.

it's not an investment, it's a career path!

Do you people sit there and think hmm, college, or 100k in my IRA? NO!

you do it to better your life and do what you love. if you truly want to just keep flying for when you are old and senile, by all means use that IRA money when you retire to fly.

Just remember life will have passed you by and it was your choice 100%
 
jspeed87 said:
Go to a 2 year aviation community college. You might save 20k by doing so.
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I was actually going to recommend this, you sound uncertain about what you really want to do, so a two year college maybe the place to start. Check out the Community College of Beaver County in PA. It's affordable, and arguably the best atc-cti school available.
 
At least with an education they can't take that away from you….you have earned it and you will always have it for the rest of your life (some use it more than others)...but with playing stocks/investment it can always change without you doing anything. Has potential to grow but that is almost the same as getting a degree...you have potential! As far as UND & $60K others have said this already but look into other avenues...don’t just think that is the only pipeline you have to go down.

Its a hard choice for you I'm sure.
 
surreal1221 said:
60k was too rich for my blood, so I found a way to do it at a lower cost and to get a far better value out of my investment.

Perhaps you should enlist in one of the services, make a livable wage, save some money, pay for flight training with cash or a very modest loan (< 20k), use the GI Bill to pay for college...

Many have done just that, and are carrying on fine middle class lifestyles while flying.
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Good advice, I have looked into the new post 9/11 GI bill and it pays 100 percent of flight training. For someone who is in no rush to get to the airlines at 22, this is a good idea. Plus, the military can teach you a thing or two and give you experiences not had in civilian life.
 
elmetal said:
I just disagree with the idea that IRA is a better "investment" than flight training.

it's not an investment, it's a career path!

Do you people sit there and think hmm, college, or 100k in my IRA? NO!

you do it to better your life and do what you love. if you truly want to just keep flying for when you are old and senile, by all means use that IRA money when you retire to fly.

Just remember life will have passed you by and it was your choice 100%
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You have to be realistic. Taking out a flight training loan for $60k, with little to no chance of getting a job in the next 2-3 years is financial suicide. The juice keeps running on that tab until you pay it down. It is tough to get a CFI job out there right now, even with 1000+ hours of dual. You can't get a job at most traffic watch or pipeline until you have a minimum of 500 hours. You can't get a 135 freight job without a minimum of 1200 hours. You can't get a regional jet job until you have 1500 hours.

Keep in mind that all of those jobs I listed pay anywhere from 12-25k the first few years, even if you get the job.

So, to put this into perspective:

$60,000 at 10%+ annual interest rate (I think pilot finance is around 18% right now, you may get sub 10% through a college degree program)
No job opportunity for 2 years
20k/year job for 2-3 more years
So, 5+ years without paying down much of your debt equals nearly $30k in interest alone
 
mojo6911 said:
You have to be realistic. Taking out a flight training loan for $60k, with little to no chance of getting a job in the next 2-3 years is financial suicide. The juice keeps running on that tab until you pay it down. It is tough to get a CFI job out there right now, even with 1000+ hours of dual. You can't get a job at most traffic watch or pipeline until you have a minimum of 500 hours. You can't get a 135 freight job without a minimum of 1200 hours. You can't get a regional jet job until you have 1500 hours.

Keep in mind that all of those jobs I listed pay anywhere from 12-25k the first few years, even if you get the job.

So, to put this into perspective:

$60,000 at 10%+ annual interest rate (I think pilot finance is around 18% right now, you may get sub 10% through a college degree program)
No job opportunity for 2 years
20k/year job for 2-3 more years
So, 5+ years without paying down much of your debt equals nearly $30k in interest alone
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become a pilot because you want to do it. not because it's a good investment.

20 years from now, would you rather have made the "good investment" in the IRA but have led a lesser life than what you had hoped because you didn't try to be a pilot?

What I'm trying to say is, don't live the future. Too many people worry about retirement and the later part of life, and forget that life is now.

Live for today and hope for tomorrow
 
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