Raising the flaps in the flare (part XVII)

Space Monkey

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
Roger Roger said:
I still pull the flaps on touchdown in the PC12. Flaps, ground idle, beta is a nice flow across the console. Bonus point, it’s a good habit pattern in the Lear but substitute spoilers for flaps. If only I could get used to fingering the spoiler switch with my left hand...
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Wait, what?? Why would you deploy flaps in the flare for short field? If anything, raise 'em to get the weight on the wheels for better braking!

I don't disagree with the Lear statement. Despite the AFM, in many jets, spoilers just before touchdown is a very, very fine thing indeed!
 
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Roger Roger

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
Space Monkey said:
Wait, what?? Why would you deploy flaps in the flare for short field. If anything, raise 'em to get the weight on the wheels for better braking!

I don't disagree with the Lear statement. Despite the AFM, in many jets, spoilers just before touchdown is a very, very fine thing indeed!
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Raise the flaps my dude. Not extend them.
 
mattc206

mattc206

Well-Known Member
Roger Roger said:
I still pull the flaps on touchdown in the PC12. Flaps up, ground idle, beta is a nice flow across the console. Bonus point, it’s a good habit pattern in the Lear but substitute spoilers for flaps. If only I could get used to fingering the spoiler switch with my left hand...
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When I use to fly -12/45's we got a memo not to go into ground idle at FL250, some guys were planning their descent on ground idle from the flight levels haha. I saw it done once, and it was umm...quick :bounce:
 
Roger Roger

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
mattc206 said:
When I use to fly -12/45's we got a memo not to go into ground idle at FL250, some guys were planning their descent on ground idle from the flight levels haha. I saw it done once, and it was umm...quick :bounce:
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Did the pressurization keep up?
 
Space Monkey

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
mattc206 said:
When I use to fly -12/45's we got a memo not to go into ground idle at FL250, some guys were planning their descent on ground idle from the flight levels haha. I saw it done once, and it was umm...quick :bounce:
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Were your fellow pilots former Jump pilots? ;)
 
gotWXdagain

gotWXdagain

Polished Member
Roger Roger said:
I still pull the flaps on touchdown in the PC12. Flaps up, ground idle, beta is a nice flow across the console. Bonus point, it’s a good habit pattern in the Lear but substitute spoilers for flaps. If only I could get used to fingering the spoiler switch with my left hand...
Click to expand...
See I can see why it could work to pull the flaps up in flare in something like a piper with the mechanical bar that you can slap the flaps all the way up lickety split, but doing so in a PC12, that takes about 20 seconds to go from full to zero, really isn’t going to help you stop short. For that 6-7 seconds that they’re going from 40 to 15, you’re not really shedding much in the way of lift, but you are shedding a whole lot of drag. The loss of drag without an appreciable lift change for that much time is not doing you any favors.
 
Space Monkey

Space Monkey

Well-Known Member
gotWXdagain said:
See I can see why it could work to pull the flaps up in flare in something like a piper with the mechanical bar that you can slap the flaps all the way up lickety split, but doing so in a PC12, that takes about 20 seconds to go from full to zero, really isn’t going to help you stop short. For that 6-7 seconds that they’re going from 40 to 15, you’re not really shedding much in the way of lift, but you are shedding a whole lot of drag. The loss of drag without an appreciable lift change for that much time is not doing you any favors.
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Once upon a time, there was an old short-field, grass-strip, country-captain who found he could stop his 182 a leeetle bit shorter if he got more weight on his wheels by raising his flaps just after touchdown.

One day, the country captain told his story to one of his airline pilot friends who was named Propilot. And, as so often happens to the listeners of fairy tales, Propilot didn't really think the tale through very well.

But... it was a good story. And as good stories are so often wont to do, this story made a deep impression on Propilot's sub-consciousness. It spoke to him about something loved and lost far back in his hopeful youth. Plus, it was quaint tale, delivered with the economic elegance of the rustic raconteur. Good for bar banter. Much more compelling than tales of Tuesday's arrivals at Atlanta.

But, Propilot was troubled. A deep, yet vague sense of hollowness permeated his soul. His industry was a mess. His life was empty. His third wife had just sued him for alimony a second time. He thought he had some kids in Singapore, but it was murky recollection, more like a dream than a memory.

Propilot's therapist told him that the way to find meaning is to give back.

Propilot resolved himself. That's what he would do! He would give back.

So, the very next time Propilot attended the local airport day celebration, he endeavored to do the right thing. But he a was shy fellow, loath to talk about himself. Thankfully, airport day served free beer. Propilot, like his colleagues, drank a handsome quantity. Thereby, he grew increasingly loquacious. Now, finally, he could reach out and give back to others.

As often happens in fairy tales, it was at just that moment that a group of young student pilots happened by. Propilot held court. Propilot regaled the somewhat stunnded youths with the exciting tales of super-short grass landings made by his old mountain dwelling friend. He explained, in great yet vaguely recalled detail what he described as 'le technique du flap'. He explained, "that's French". He explained, "That makes sense because lots of stuff in aviation is French, like 'empenage' and 'la chatte'."

And thus it was that Propilot felt good about himself. He went back to fly the Tuesday Atlanta/Newark run with renewed vigor and a spring in his step.

The students, honored by the attention of one so revered and experienced as Propilot, remembered the tale he had told, mostly...maybe embellished a little here and there. They took it with them into their future endeavors and spread it widely throughout their professional networks.

And the entire aviation industry lived happily ever after.

The end.
 
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Roger Roger

Roger Roger

Paid to sleep, fly for fun
gotWXdagain said:
See I can see why it could work to pull the flaps up in flare in something like a piper with the mechanical bar that you can slap the flaps all the way up lickety split, but doing so in a PC12, that takes about 20 seconds to go from full to zero, really isn’t going to help you stop short. For that 6-7 seconds that they’re going from 40 to 15, you’re not really shedding much in the way of lift, but you are shedding a whole lot of drag. The loss of drag without an appreciable lift change for that much time is not doing you any favors.
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*shrug* I’ve tried it both ways. Seems to me if I yank the flaps on touchdown the feel on the brakes is much easier to avoid locking a tire. Could be placebo I guess.
 
mightynimbus

mightynimbus

Well-Known Member
Space Monkey said:
Once upon a time, there was an old short-field, grass-strip, country-captain who found he could stop his 182 a leeetle bit shorter if he got more weight on his wheels by raising his flaps just after touchdown.

One day, the country captain told his story to one of his airline pilot friends who was named Propilot. And, as so often happens to the listeners of fairy tales, Propilot didn't really think the tale through very well.

But... it was a good story. And as good stories are so often wont to do, this story made a deep impression on Propilot's sub-consciousness. It spoke to him about something loved and lost far back in his hopeful youth. Plus, it was quaint tale, delivered with the economic elegance of the rustic raconteur. Good for bar banter. Much more compelling than tales of Tuesday's arrivals at Atlanta.

But, Propilot was troubled. A deep, yet vague sense of hollowness permeated his soul. His industry was a mess. His life was empty. His third wife had just sued him for alimony a second time. He thought he had some kids in Singapore, but it was murky recollection, more like a dream than a memory.

Propilot's therapist told him that the way to find meaning is to give back.

Propilot resolved himself. That's what he would do! He would give back.

So, the very next time Propilot attended the local airport day celebration, he endeavored to do the right thing. But he a was shy fellow, loath to talk about himself. Thankfully, airport day served free beer. Propilot, like his colleagues, drank a handsome quantity. Thereby, he grew increasingly loquacious. Now, finally, he could reach out and give back to others.

As often happens in fairy tales, it was at just that moment that a group of young student pilots happened by. Propilot held court. Propilot regaled the somewhat stunnded youths with the exciting tales of super-short grass landings made by his old mountain dwelling friend. He explained, in great yet vaguely recalled detail what he described as 'le technique du flap'. He explained, "that's French". He explained, "That makes sense because lots of stuff in aviation is French, like 'empenage' and 'la chatte'."

And thus it was that Propilot felt good about himself. He went back to fly the Tuesday Atlanta/Newark run with renewed vigor and a spring in his step.

The students, honored by the attention of one so revered and experienced as Propilot, remembered the tale he had told, mostly...maybe embellished a little here and there. They took it with them into their future endeavors and spread it widely throughout their professional networks.

And the entire aviation industry lived happily ever after.

The end.
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I thought that was going to end in the perimeter fence, but I'll take it just them same. awesome!!
 
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