Question

[NYCDooDahMan]

Say you're an airline pilot and after push back the plane needs to return to the gate, then after another push ATC delays all departures for a bit b/c of weather, by now 4 hours have gone by. The flight itself is takes over six hours, is the time wasted on the ground considered time against thier shifts? Could that theoretically put them over the 8 hour threshold and they'd flying too much w/out a break. Anyone know?

 

[crashmbern]

depends i guess. i thought you paid flight time as soon as the doors close. but technically if the engines are running. so if the pilot turns of the engine and runs off the APU then i don't think that time counts. but what do i know?

 

[Cheechako]

14CFR 121.471 says we cannot be scheduled for more than 8 hours flying time in a 24 hour period. For delays (mechanical, weather, security issues, etc.) then only rule that applies at that time is the duty limit which is a whole confusing ball of wax in itself. The crux of is says we need to look back in the last 24 hours and find 8 continuous duty-free hours. So really (and this has happened to me before) that crew is leagal to be 16 hours on the job!

As far as pay is concerned, once the door shuts our time clock starts.

 

[ready2fly]

[ QUOTE ]
Say you're an airline pilot

[/ QUOTE ]
"I am an airline pilot."

 

[Tim]

In ATL they have that problem alot in the summer. Every now and then you have a crew time out. Which means they are over the limit. But I think most try to get out the gate because at that point, especially regional guys, are getting paid. I have seen a full 757 get unloaded/loaded in under 30 min so the crew wouldnt time out.

 

[mtsu_av8er]

[ QUOTE ]
i thought you paid flight time as soon as the doors close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some airlines pay pilots by the trip and not by the hour....

 

[flyover]

The critical time is 16 hours on duty. The others are just scheduled.

So when you start the day you can't be "scheduled" to fly more than 8 hours. If weather and ATC delays cause you to fly 10 hours, that's OK FAR wise. (the contract may be a different matter, but most contracts allow for delays).

You are "flying" when the brakes are released and you are under way. So if you are sitting out on a taxiway wating for a takeoff clearance you are flying. But it's irrelevant because what really counts is on duty.

So the 16 hours on duty is hard. The way it is enforced was recently clarified by the FAA. When you are cleared for takeoff, based on expected time enroute you must be expecting to land at your destination before the the 16 hours is up. So if you have had a long day you need to know as you taxi out what the latest time is that you can accept takeoff clearance. Now if you are airborne by that time and then get a delay you are still legal to proceed to destination.

Clear as mud?

 

[TallBoy85]

We just got the whole duty/rest time limitations thing in ground school a couple weeks back so its all pretty fresh in my mind.

Bottom line is that we could fly 15.9 hours in a day as long as we were only originally scheduled for 8. I'm not sure how you would manage to double your flight time on any given day, but it is possible and it does happen that people break the 8 hours I would imagine quite frequently. The thing is, is that we can't accept a schedule modification mid day that would push us over the 8 hour limit. IE we have a 4 hour lunch break, we'd flown 5 hours on a 4 hour schedule in the morning and we had a 3.5 hour afternoon, but someone asked us to reposition an airplane even if it was part 91 flying...we still couldn't do it because we'd be scheduled for 8.5 hours total flying time at that point, even if we did a 3 hour repositioning flight too.

The real lame part about it all that we found was that even if the airline tells us to go and take a flight that will bust us, they can just self disclose and we can lose our jobs.

Can't takeoff if you're gonna bust a reg now can ya?

 

[Mr_Creepy]

I have a question about the part 91 reposition flight. The way I read the rules you can do all the 91 flying you want AFTER the 121 shift is over.

I assume you are talking about Mesa. There were many nights we "91'd" a plane somewhere after doing 8 hrs of flying. We had the option of refusing but we usually did it, because it meant we could get home.

 

[Looking4Lower]

I used to fly 121 Supplemental, and the duty time rules are a tad different - i.e. your duty time can be broken up into chunks over a 24-hour period in such a way that can horribly disrupt your normal sleep/work cycle (I don't remember the regs in detail off the top of my head, but If I remember right there isn't an actual "8-hour rest lookback rule" like there is in Domestic and Flag). Add that to the fact that we were unscheduled, and things got real interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
I have a question about the part 91 reposition flight. The way I read the rules you can do all the 91 flying you want AFTER the 121 shift is over.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the dirty little secret that I didn't know about until I started flying 121 freight. The common interpretation of the rules is that any "tail-end ferry" legs after your 121/135 legs doesn't count toward the 8-hour limit. A ferry flight to PICK UP your passengers/freight does count, though.

Keep in mind that whenever there is a "grey area" in duty/rest regs, everybody seems to have a different interpretation depending on their goals, and then you have conflict. Pilots always want to be rested and legal, managers and ops people want to make profit and those two things don't always go together.