Question regarding Marine flight school

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wannabejetpilot

Member
Hi, I am a freshman in college and majoring in biology.I am looking into joining the Marine corps as a pilot, specifically fighters. I know if I want to fly jets, the marines isn't the way to go, but I like the idea of how the marines guarantee flight slots in PLC. I plan on doing PLC and getting started soon. I would like to fly either the f18, f35, av8b, or even the prowler. I researched deeply into doing this and learned that you have to be the top one percent of your class in flight school to fly what you want. How hard exactly is it to be the top 1 percent in marine flight school? I know a some things about aircraft and aircraft systems especially when it comes to flying fighters because I read about them a lot. I heard over on baseops and airwarriors that coming in with a humble attitude, never arguing with the IP, and not thinking you know everything helps and that you have to have a more eager to learn and improve mentality. I plan on starting flight school soon and going all the way up to at least instrument rating by time I graduate. I've looked into majoring in aerospace engineering, but I am terrible at math though. So anyone that has been a military pilot, can you give me any pointers or advice on becoming the top one percent in my flight training class? I read that its all luck and timing and that it really depends on how the class in front of yours performance is and how you have to achieve a score on a test after primary flight training(which changes depending on that class performance). I also know that needs of the service is first. How many jet slots are usually available each year for a particular class? Another thing I read on air warriors was that there are also helo drafts and jet drafts:D. Since the marines have mostly helos and only about 300 or so jets in their inventory, I think its realistic that I would most likely be in a helo draft, which I wouldn't mind, but I would mostly like to serve flying jets
 
Make sure you read the fine print. They'll "guarantee" you a pilot slot, then if any little thing goes wrong (are you in perfect physical condition? Are you sure? Are you really sure?) in the pipeline to get you there, you still owe them whatever you agreed to, and they're really sorry that they can't send you to pilot training.
 
wannabejetpilot said:
Hi, I am a freshman in college and majoring in biology.I am looking into joining the Marine corps as a pilot, specifically fighters. I know if I want to fly jets, the marines isn't the way to go, but I like the idea of how the marines guarantee flight slots in PLC. I plan on doing PLC and getting started soon. I would like to fly either the f18, f35, av8b, or even the prowler. I researched deeply into doing this and learned that you have to be the top one percent of your class in flight school to fly what you want. How hard exactly is it to be the top 1 percent in marine flight school? I know a some things about aircraft and aircraft systems especially when it comes to flying fighters because I read about them a lot. I heard over on baseops and airwarriors that coming in with a humble attitude, never arguing with the IP, and not thinking you know everything helps and that you have to have a more eager to learn and improve mentality. I plan on starting flight school soon and going all the way up to at least instrument rating by time I graduate. I've looked into majoring in aerospace engineering, but I am terrible at math though. So anyone that has been a military pilot, can you give me any pointers or advice on becoming the top one percent in my flight training class? I read that its all luck and timing and that it really depends on how the class in front of yours performance is and how you have to achieve a score on a test after primary flight training(which changes depending on that class performance). I also know that needs of the service is first. How many jet slots are usually available each year for a particular class? Another thing I read on air warriors was that there are also helo drafts and jet drafts:D. Since the marines have mostly helos and only about 300 or so jets in their inventory, I think its realistic that I would most likely be in a helo draft, which I wouldn't mind, but I would mostly like to serve flying jets
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Do you want to fly, or do you want to be a Marine? I think that would be my question for ya. You really have to consider the fact that you are signing up for a job that could have you kill people. If you haven't experienced death first hand (even if it's grandma passing) I think you need to consider whether or not you're willing to do that to other people. Think about what that means before you make any decisions. If you want to fly, well, there are a lot of badass ways to do it as a civilian where you aren't going to have to kill anyone to do it. If you want to be a soldier/sailor/airman/marine then do it, but do it for the right reasons - you want to help out, you want to serve, you want to do what you think is right for your country. That's just my advice, I never served, thought about it a lot in my life, but I struggle with some of the philosophical ramifications of it - even though I would love to go kick ISIS ass (those guys seem to be diabolically evil), you have to remember, you don't get to choose who's ass you get to kick. You have to be willing to kick whoever's ass you're told as long as it's a lawful order. To me, this presents some problems - not many, but some pretty serious ones. For example, I didn't agree with the justification for the Iraq war (now that we've meddled we should try to clean it up, but that's another thread), I personally thought the case wasn't there to invade, but we did anyway. If you were in the military at the time, you have to do your job - even when you think it's abject BS. You could be put in a position where you have to kill people who you don't necessarily think deserve it (or you could be killed). Make sure that you are okay with this before you sign on the dotted line, I personally go back and forth on it. Now I fly medevac and that gives me a lot of sense of satisfaction about my role in the community.

Personally, if I ever decide that it's what I want to do, I'll do the guard, from my friends who have done it, it seems like the best compromise for a balance between civilian life and service, you are also part of that "well regulated militia" that helps out in disasters at home while being able to deploy abroad, and you can have a "normal" life outside of the military - as normal as a life in aviation can be. ;)
 
wannabejetpilot said:
Hi, I am a freshman in college and majoring in biology.I am looking into joining the Marine corps as a pilot, specifically fighters. I know if I want to fly jets, the marines isn't the way to go, but I like the idea of how the marines guarantee flight slots in PLC. I plan on doing PLC and getting started soon. I would like to fly either the f18, f35, av8b, or even the prowler. I researched deeply into doing this and learned that you have to be the top one percent of your class in flight school to fly what you want. How hard exactly is it to be the top 1 percent in marine flight school? I know a some things about aircraft and aircraft systems especially when it comes to flying fighters because I read about them a lot. I heard over on baseops and airwarriors that coming in with a humble attitude, never arguing with the IP, and not thinking you know everything helps and that you have to have a more eager to learn and improve mentality. I plan on starting flight school soon and going all the way up to at least instrument rating by time I graduate. I've looked into majoring in aerospace engineering, but I am terrible at math though. So anyone that has been a military pilot, can you give me any pointers or advice on becoming the top one percent in my flight training class? I read that its all luck and timing and that it really depends on how the class in front of yours performance is and how you have to achieve a score on a test after primary flight training(which changes depending on that class performance). I also know that needs of the service is first. How many jet slots are usually available each year for a particular class? Another thing I read on air warriors was that there are also helo drafts and jet drafts:D. Since the marines have mostly helos and only about 300 or so jets in their inventory, I think its realistic that I would most likely be in a helo draft, which I wouldn't mind, but I would mostly like to serve flying jets
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I'm an Army aviator, however I can answer some of your questions.

First : you will be a Marine, who is a Naval Aviator.
Being the top of your class has nothing to do with "luck or timing." Hard work, running faster (scoring higher on PFT's) academic standings and application during "flight school" will get you top of the class.

Also, top of class means you select first, of the available airframes. So if there are UH-1's, AH-1's and CH-53's. Congrats, you are never going to tell a girl," I was too close for misses, so I switched to guns."

The best advice I was ever told, (in terms of military aviation) is that I'm a Soldier, Officer, pilot. In that order.

Ahh, and finally, the Marine Ethos (I spent 5 years in the Marine Corps): have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
 
Nark said:
Being the top of your class has nothing to do with "luck or timing." Hard work, running faster (scoring higher on PFT's) academic standings and application during "flight school" will get you top of the class.
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The "luck and timing" aspect does come into play with how the AF runs UPT.

Luck: Because you are both competing against an objective standard as well as your classmates, the makeup of your class unfortunately has a lot to do with how you will be racked. If you are in a class of total idiots, you could be a mediocre pilot and be better than all the rest of your classmates. On the other hand, you could be a well above average pilot, and if you are in a class with a bunch of other well above average pilots, you may be nowhere near the top of the class. I have seen this personally play out, where a pilot who would have absolutely been a top-3-in-his-class in an average UPT class end up in the middle of the pack because there are so many good students in that class. Conversely, I've also seen a total doofus end up as the top graduate because he's in a very average group of students.

Timing: You could end up at the top of your class, only to have whatever airplane you really want to fly not be available the day/week/month you track select or assign. Again, seen this happen, where there's a really great student who wants airframe X, and only airframes Y and Z are available to his class on assignment night. Sometimes Y and Z are pretty undesirable assignments.

The bottom line with both of these factors is, you can only control your own performance. Do excellent. Work hard. Push your limits (but remember that it is a marathon, not a sprint -- you have to sustain the effort for a full year). But absolutely don't have your heart set on a particular airframe (or even a particular type of aircraft), because there is simply no standard of performance that ever guarantees a student will get what he wants.
 
I think you are asking the right questions. "Top 1%" is probably a little exaggerated. I certainly wasn't top 1% back when I selected jets in primary, and neither were any of my Marine buds (I'm a Navy guy). I'd say if anything, they had a bit more of a "draft" for jets going on than we did, though that was like 8 years ago so things may have changed. The biggest factor involved in USN/USMC platform selection is how you did in primary training, and by the letter of the law, you have to be in the top 50% to be eligible for selection into jets. Where the line is drawn (beyond this minimum) varies week to week, but I never saw it anywhere near "top 1% only". If you had better than a 50 NSS (the weird flight school term for saying where you sit on the grading bell curve, ie 50 NSS = top 50%), you had a shot, and if you had better than a 60, a pretty good one normally, again in my timeframe which was now years ago. It however gets more complicated, because that bell curve is not comparing you with your classmattes, but rather the last few dozens of folks that went through before you. So you, and 5 or 7 or however many of your friends could feasibly all have 50+ NSS, even if that included everyone in your class. Maybe you all just did that well, in which case, it really comes down to needs of the Navy. Do they need 5 or 7 or however many jet pilots that week? If not, a few guys, with otherwise "top x-%" grades still don't get it. If that makes any sense. Tons of hurdles to jump over between now and then for you just to get to that point, but if that is your goal, it's not super unlikely or anything. Most of the guys I selected with got what they wanted, including me (ultimately went Hornets).

I'd agree that you should join for the right reasons, ie just wanting to fly jets maybe isn't the best reason in itself........but in all honesty, that was probably why I did it. I did have, and still do have, an interest in serving our country and all that good stuff, but I probably wouldn't have joined the military if it hadn't involved flying to be quite honest. In hindsight, I'd still agree with that statement. Feel free to shoot me a PM if you have questions. I'm pretty far removed from flight school at this point, but I'm pretty familiar with the USMC Hornet community, and did initial F/A-18 training at the Marine FRS.

As for civilian flight training, I did a similar thing, and got my commercial and IR tickets before the military. I think it helped me, at least very early on. Knowing how to talk on the radio, and some basic instrument skills payed some dividends during the early stages of training (ie primary, beginning of intermediate). Beyond that point, it really no longer gave me an advantage. Tactical military flying is so different, and so much more demanding than most any type of civilian flying, particularly anything you would do in a training environment, that there is really no way to fully prepare or even understand what you are getting into. But it helped in the beginning.
 
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It sounds like you may have already figured some of what I will mention below, props to you for doing your research, keep it up.
Here is my biased thoughts as an ANG bubba....

First thing that stands out is you state you want to fly jets....
Ok awesome.... Guess who owns the most jets? The USAF
Maybe the USMC shouldn't be your main focus if you want to only fly pointy-nose jets?
The Marines and Navy have a ton of Helos as you pointed out, just as the AF has Preds. which might be considered not desirable to some, and vice versa.

If your mindset is you want to blow stuff up supporting the troops on the ground and it doesn't matter if its in a fighter or a Cobra, then I'd say press with the USMC PLC.
If you are thinking man it'd be nice to stay in a Hilton while TDY on a training exercise flying a F-16, piddle packs are fun, and flag pole flying is great, then there are other options out there. Marines don't stay anywhere besides muddy tents right? Some of that was in jest, but there are fundamental differences between the way the services do things, read up and figure out which is for you. I know you didn't ask which branch but I think your questions lead to that discussion.

I was about your age when I first heard of the PLC as well, someone luckily told me about the Air National Guard. Only say luckily because I don't think I would have passed the flight physical wicket in the PLC way. I needed a waiver that was written by a Guard Flt Doc and approved by AD during my FC1 at Brooks, now Wright-Patt. I am not sure the Active Duty Flt Docs would have taken the time to write a waiver, the Flt Medical could have been my show stopper.

So you know about the Guard, then let me propose this..... Go to your local fighter (sounds like you want to point with your elbows) guard base, and enlist in something aircrew related while going to college. Kick butt in college, your enlisted position and build some flight time and ratings. Go interview at as many Guard/Reserve units as possible when the time comes.... Get assigned a UPT slot and go from there. One way to skin the cat, possibly reduce student loans, and fly that fighter?

All paths to wings no matter what color they are have uncertaintity with no 100% guarantees. As mentioned by others the want to serve should be a main priority. You will experience speed bumps on your path no matter which way you choose; preds get assigned, you eject out of a jet in training and can only fly non-seat aircraft, your unit gets Brac'd, your Flt does so awesome that on track night the other Flt gets your T-38 slot to be fair to that Flt, all things I have seen in my short time so far.

There are paths that have more control of your destiny then others. Find the best one that works for you. As I said above keep doing your research.
PM me if you have any specific Guard questions, I can try to help.

On a side note, I know of a AFROTC guy get approval to go chase down a Guard UPT slot. I don't think its common at all however but could be another path.
 
kaudbron said:
If your mindset is you want to blow stuff up supporting the troops on the ground and it doesn't matter if its in a fighter or a Cobra, then I'd say press with the USMC PLC.
If you are thinking man it'd be nice to stay in a Hilton while TDY on a training exercise flying a F-16, piddle packs are fun, and flag pole flying is great, then there are other options out there. Marines don't stay anywhere besides muddy tents right? Some of that was in jest, but there are fundamental differences between the way the services do things, read up and figure out which is for you. I know you didn't ask which branch but I think your questions lead to that discussion.
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This is an important question to ask. You need to choose which branch is the best fit. Take the following sentence. It means something completely different to each branch.

Secure that building.

To the Army: Post guards and challenge anyone approaching.

To the Navy: Turn out all the lights and lock the door when you leave.

To the Air Force: Buy the building with a low interest rate and favorable loan terms.

To the Corps: Overrun the building, kill everyone inside, set up a perimeter, and turn it into to CP.

Depending on which answer you agree with, that is the branch for you!
 
Nark said:
The best advice I was ever told, (in terms of military aviation) is that I'm a Soldier, Officer, pilot. In that order.
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True. But that's also because the Army hates aviation and doesn't want aviators standing out at all. That's why the standard flightsuit had to go. :)

///AMG said:
I'd agree that you should join for the right reasons, ie just wanting to fly jets maybe isn't the best reason in itself.........
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My grandmother wants to fly jets!!!!

 
lol. I think Flight of the Intruder might be more appropriate here……..I know that was really my inspiration back when
 
I'll try to answer a few of your questions as a Marine flyer (KC-130s). I also joined as an air contract through PLC, so I can try and give you a little bit of an insight into that (though it was 7 years ago). Foremost, you are a Marine Officer first; your primary MOS comes second. What this means is that you are in a club centered around the infantry from the moment you show up at the OCS parade deck. If you are only interested in flying an airplane, or if you advertise your intense interest in aviation at OCS, you are not going to do well. We had one guy in my PLC platoon with a bunch of civilian hours and quals get bounced in week 5; he had a few problems, but supposedly he told the retention board that his goal was 'to be the best pilot the Marine Corps ever saw', and was shown the door pretty quick after that. I munched the ground side stuff up, but still got my share of ribbing from sergeant instructors, candidates, and (later at TBS) other officers for being an air contract. On that note, should you graduate and commission you will then head to The Basic School for six months, where you will learn to lead a provisional rifle platoon. While not the sustained screaming/job interview that is OCS, it is still pretty intense field training that is going to have you feeling a lot closer to the infantry than wings of gold.

After you get through all that, you head off to Pensacola to start flight school. For me, with the training, plus a slowdown in the pilot pipeline, it was almost exactly two years from when I commissioned to when I started API (Marines have only a few slots in each class of student Naval aviators, the rest are Navy and Coast Guard, therefore it tends to back up the flow of students coming in). In the meantime, there's a lot of ground training and TAD's to the ground units at Lejeune to be had.

As for flight school, ///AMG told it pretty well with the NSS system (this is the grading system the Navy uses). There's no "1 percent" sort of deal going on, but jet grades were just above 50 four years ago when I went through. Again, like ///AMG said it can all come down to slots available, the other guys' grades/preferences the week you select in primary, and your NSS and that bell curve. I knew guys with really high NSS who didn't get jets, and other guys with 50+ NSS who got jets and didn't want them. There's also a minimum NSS to maintain, and it's normally higher for Marines than it was for Navy guys. If you fall below it you get dropped, lat move to a ground MOS, so again, hope you liked TBS...

I would say it doesn't matter a whole lot what you study in college initially. My bachelor's is in International Politics, I hate math, I knew very little about how airplanes worked before, but I had an NSS competitive for jets. Another Marine I went through most of primary with was an Embry-Riddle grad with a ton of civilian hours; I'd say it gave him a leg up early in contacts, but by the end we were pretty much even. The main thing is just having the ethic and drive to study and put the work in once you get there. They'll teach you everything.

As for Marine aviation: if your true goal is nothing more than to fly a pointy, shiny fast thing doing the latest and greatest air combat maneuvers, really talk to the Air Force, Navy, and Guard bubbas here. Marine aviation is centered around supporting the ground Marine; lots of close air support, assault support, etc. Also, the Marines are traditionally at the short end of the budget and supply chain. The Prowlers and Harriers are super old, the -18s are pretty old too. I fly J-model Hercs, which along with the Osprey are some of the newer aircraft in the inventory, and even we are worn thin and often hurting for parts. That said, we are heavily utilized, the CH-53K will be out in a few years, the UH-1Y and AH-1Z are on line, and if the F-35 flies right and doesn't get attacked by Congress, there's a pretty good forecast for Marine aviation. You can fly a fairly new plane and get a ton of flight time depending where you're at. And most guys I know love what they fly anyway (I wanted Hercs as my first choice, and have never looked back).

Like I said, talk to the other services too, and feel out what it is you want in being a military aviator. If you have any more questions feel free to PM me.
 
Even when you make it to a Marine aircraft squadron and get to fly the F-18s, you will still be doing ground tours in an infantry unit at some point. I was assigned as a Navy guy to an infantry unit, and found myself working with 2 Marine F-18 pilots who were assigned to the infantry battalion - our job was to get fire support from the air, from arty, and from offshore Navy ships. For our MCCRES hike, we humped our own radios and batteries, spare batteries, "light-weight" (not) radar beacon, stuff we needed to do our jobs in addition to our personal weapon and gear, etc. - it was interesting see how things worked over in the Marine Corps side of things.
 
Thanks everyone for your responses! I was just looking at the navy option as well and did a lot of research on that. However, I see that it is practically harder to get a flight slot. I am majoring in biology. I've heard that the Navy likes people with degrees in Aerospace engineering and physics stuff. Is this true? Does the navy mostly choose people with AE degrees over others? I talked to ROTC students/grads who were going for a flight slot who didn't major in the 2 fields and they were assigned to go to submarine warfare and lost any chance of a flight slot. I also read on air warriors about submarine drafts.
 
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