Question for Military PIlots (Formation Takeoff)
- Thread starter derg
- Start date
[ QUOTE ]
So if there are two jets performing a formation takeoff, but the lead's got a V1 abort, how do you notify the other pilot? What about in instrument conditions?
Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
A couple of ways. First, during a form takeoff, the centerline is briefed as a "brick wall", that is, each aircraft takes it's half of the runway on lineup, and stays there. That way, if lead aborts, there's not a collision problem. Second, it's also briefed that during takeoff, the wingman knows what to expect. For example, there's no need for the wingman to note his 1000' or 2000' check speed on takeoff roll, since lead is checking that and if the wingman is keeping up with lead, and lead made the check speed, so did the wingman. Second, if at any time during the takeoff roll, wingman sees rapid aft line of sight by lead.....that is, lead rapidly decelerates, it's briefed to assume that lead aborted, and wingman now makes his own single-ship takeoff. Again, any abort is pretty much obvious in the sense that a radio call needn't be made, since these contingencies are pre-briefed, and each flight member knows what the other is doing at pretty much all times. He may not know why the abort was made, only that it was made, and he exercises the briefed contingency for that. Formation flying, as well as takeoffs and landings, are a highly briefed event, leaving no room for question marks in any of the minds of the flight members, simply due to the dangerous nature of operating two aircraft so close together.
Word of caution, I DO NOT reccomend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.
Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot?
All that being said, with the proper training, formation flying can be fun and interesting; but I'll never fly formation with someone without the training (unless, of course, I'm instructing them in it). I do get somewhat leery reading AIM Section 7-5-9 covering Emergency Airborne Inspection of Other Aircraft. Again, a VERY risky maneuver. Some of you may remember the death of Senator John Heinz. He was riding in a Piper Aerostar that had an unsafe gear indication. A Bell 412 helo rejoined on the Aerostar, per the Aerostar pilot's request to check out the hear. The two aircraft ended up having a mid-air. Both crews were untrained in formation ops, and it bit them hard. There's very few situations where civilian aircraft HAVE to fly formation, and a word of caution, if any accident/incident arises from formation flight, especially with an untrained crew, the FAA will have a field day invoking 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation.
So if there are two jets performing a formation takeoff, but the lead's got a V1 abort, how do you notify the other pilot? What about in instrument conditions?
Thanks!
[/ QUOTE ]
A couple of ways. First, during a form takeoff, the centerline is briefed as a "brick wall", that is, each aircraft takes it's half of the runway on lineup, and stays there. That way, if lead aborts, there's not a collision problem. Second, it's also briefed that during takeoff, the wingman knows what to expect. For example, there's no need for the wingman to note his 1000' or 2000' check speed on takeoff roll, since lead is checking that and if the wingman is keeping up with lead, and lead made the check speed, so did the wingman. Second, if at any time during the takeoff roll, wingman sees rapid aft line of sight by lead.....that is, lead rapidly decelerates, it's briefed to assume that lead aborted, and wingman now makes his own single-ship takeoff. Again, any abort is pretty much obvious in the sense that a radio call needn't be made, since these contingencies are pre-briefed, and each flight member knows what the other is doing at pretty much all times. He may not know why the abort was made, only that it was made, and he exercises the briefed contingency for that. Formation flying, as well as takeoffs and landings, are a highly briefed event, leaving no room for question marks in any of the minds of the flight members, simply due to the dangerous nature of operating two aircraft so close together.
Word of caution, I DO NOT reccomend pilots that HAVEN'T been trained in formation flight to undertake this endeavor; it's VERY risky. There are specific items/procedures that those undertaking form flying, especially takeoffs and landings, MUST understand, both from a lead and wing perspective. These items MUST be briefed and clear prior to stepping to the aircraft.
Items such as when taking the runway for departure, where does the leader place the wingman and why? What procedures should be followed in the event of lead/wing needing to abort prior to, or during, takeoff roll? What formation references does the wingman use to remain in position? Why is the runway centerline considered a "brick wall" and what happens if either aircraft violates said wall? For form flying: What are lead/wing responsibilities for effecting rejoins? What are the clues for detecting an overshoot? What are the procedures for performing an overshoot?
All that being said, with the proper training, formation flying can be fun and interesting; but I'll never fly formation with someone without the training (unless, of course, I'm instructing them in it). I do get somewhat leery reading AIM Section 7-5-9 covering Emergency Airborne Inspection of Other Aircraft. Again, a VERY risky maneuver. Some of you may remember the death of Senator John Heinz. He was riding in a Piper Aerostar that had an unsafe gear indication. A Bell 412 helo rejoined on the Aerostar, per the Aerostar pilot's request to check out the hear. The two aircraft ended up having a mid-air. Both crews were untrained in formation ops, and it bit them hard. There's very few situations where civilian aircraft HAVE to fly formation, and a word of caution, if any accident/incident arises from formation flight, especially with an untrained crew, the FAA will have a field day invoking 14 CFR 91.13, Careless and Reckless Operation.
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Mike!
I was in Tuscon a few years ago and there were two F-16's in position. The one in front starts noticeably bobbing his head and takes off. Just what in the world is that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Radios are nearly never used, though they can be. All signals for frequency changes or other instructions are done via had or head signals......that's the wy to not garbage up the airwaves for aircraft that don't have an interflight radio. For example, for a frequency change to channel 6, you'd tap your helmet twice which signals a radio change, then show a horizontal index finger, which signifies the number 6. What you saw with the F-16s was the form takeoff signals. As the two jets pull onto the runway, lead stops on his half of the runway and immediately looks at wing. Wing pulls into position and and stops, giving lead a large head nod to indicate that he's ready for the run up. When takeoff clearance is given, lead gives the twirling-fingers "run-up" signal, and both jets run up. Lead checks his engine instruments and looks back at wing, who.....if he's ready, gives a large head nod to lead indicating ready for brake release. If the two jets are going to do an actual form takeoff (that is, both rolling at the same time.....as opposed to a 10/15/20 second delay between the two), then lead, in order to signal brake release, lifts his head and brings it down to his chest. Just prior to his head hitting his chest, wing releases brakes, and as his chin hits his chest, lead releases brakes....thus giving wing a slight "edge" on the takeoff roll. That way, lead doesn't roll and leave wingman behind. On the roll, lead keeps a slightly derated ITT (temp) setting so as to give wing some power to play with if he starts falling behind. As lead rotates, wing (who's only watching the lead jet) rotates with him and they get airborne. A quick "up nod" of leads head signals gear retraction, and a second nod may signal flap retraction....depending on how it's briefed (I always briefed that gear and flaps be cleaned up at the same time). That's the basics of it.
Thanks Mike!
I was in Tuscon a few years ago and there were two F-16's in position. The one in front starts noticeably bobbing his head and takes off. Just what in the world is that?
[/ QUOTE ]
Radios are nearly never used, though they can be. All signals for frequency changes or other instructions are done via had or head signals......that's the wy to not garbage up the airwaves for aircraft that don't have an interflight radio. For example, for a frequency change to channel 6, you'd tap your helmet twice which signals a radio change, then show a horizontal index finger, which signifies the number 6. What you saw with the F-16s was the form takeoff signals. As the two jets pull onto the runway, lead stops on his half of the runway and immediately looks at wing. Wing pulls into position and and stops, giving lead a large head nod to indicate that he's ready for the run up. When takeoff clearance is given, lead gives the twirling-fingers "run-up" signal, and both jets run up. Lead checks his engine instruments and looks back at wing, who.....if he's ready, gives a large head nod to lead indicating ready for brake release. If the two jets are going to do an actual form takeoff (that is, both rolling at the same time.....as opposed to a 10/15/20 second delay between the two), then lead, in order to signal brake release, lifts his head and brings it down to his chest. Just prior to his head hitting his chest, wing releases brakes, and as his chin hits his chest, lead releases brakes....thus giving wing a slight "edge" on the takeoff roll. That way, lead doesn't roll and leave wingman behind. On the roll, lead keeps a slightly derated ITT (temp) setting so as to give wing some power to play with if he starts falling behind. As lead rotates, wing (who's only watching the lead jet) rotates with him and they get airborne. A quick "up nod" of leads head signals gear retraction, and a second nod may signal flap retraction....depending on how it's briefed (I always briefed that gear and flaps be cleaned up at the same time). That's the basics of it.
[ QUOTE ]
Is there like a head nod for "Dangit, I forgot to empty my piddle pack but lets launch the sortie anyway?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah! That's a definate radio call.
We had one guy take an empty piddle pack and fill it with lemonade prior to a flight. Getting to his XC destination, he pulls in to transient parking in the A-10, and a female ramp rat comes up to the plane to chock him in. He opens the canopy after shutdown, takes off his helmet, and proceeds to chug down the lemonade from the piddle pack and wipe his mouth with his sleeve......almost causing the ramp personnel to heave!
Is there like a head nod for "Dangit, I forgot to empty my piddle pack but lets launch the sortie anyway?"
[/ QUOTE ]
Nah! That's a definate radio call.
We had one guy take an empty piddle pack and fill it with lemonade prior to a flight. Getting to his XC destination, he pulls in to transient parking in the A-10, and a female ramp rat comes up to the plane to chock him in. He opens the canopy after shutdown, takes off his helmet, and proceeds to chug down the lemonade from the piddle pack and wipe his mouth with his sleeve......almost causing the ramp personnel to heave!
Timmypig
Well-Known Member
Mike
Although my time in was in the infantry, I do have mates who are or were military aviators. The old "swallow the sick bag" routine is a well known trick ....
QFIs at the old 1FTS at RAAF Point Cook would hand the controls over to the 'bograt' and pretend to throw up into a sick bag they had earlier filled with milk and broken up biscuits (ummmm ... make that 'cookies' for the mainly US audience). As the boggie looked on in horror the QFI (I'm sure you saw this coming) would say "oh! lovely!" and proceed to drink the contents.
Poor old Bloggs on his first sortie .... how mean the instructors could be...
Cheers
Although my time in was in the infantry, I do have mates who are or were military aviators. The old "swallow the sick bag" routine is a well known trick ....
QFIs at the old 1FTS at RAAF Point Cook would hand the controls over to the 'bograt' and pretend to throw up into a sick bag they had earlier filled with milk and broken up biscuits (ummmm ... make that 'cookies' for the mainly US audience). As the boggie looked on in horror the QFI (I'm sure you saw this coming) would say "oh! lovely!" and proceed to drink the contents.
Poor old Bloggs on his first sortie .... how mean the instructors could be...
Cheers
[ QUOTE ]
Mike
Although my time in was in the infantry, I do have mates who are or were military aviators. The old "swallow the sick bag" routine is a well known trick ....
QFIs at the old 1FTS at RAAF Point Cook would hand the controls over to the 'bograt' and pretend to throw up into a sick bag they had earlier filled with milk and broken up biscuits (ummmm ... make that 'cookies' for the mainly US audience). As the boggie looked on in horror the QFI (I'm sure you saw this coming) would say "oh! lovely!" and proceed to drink the contents.
Poor old Bloggs on his first sortie .... how mean the instructors could be...
Cheers
[/ QUOTE ]
The funniest thing is how such an old routine still works like a charm.
Mike
Although my time in was in the infantry, I do have mates who are or were military aviators. The old "swallow the sick bag" routine is a well known trick ....
QFIs at the old 1FTS at RAAF Point Cook would hand the controls over to the 'bograt' and pretend to throw up into a sick bag they had earlier filled with milk and broken up biscuits (ummmm ... make that 'cookies' for the mainly US audience). As the boggie looked on in horror the QFI (I'm sure you saw this coming) would say "oh! lovely!" and proceed to drink the contents.
Poor old Bloggs on his first sortie .... how mean the instructors could be...
Cheers
[/ QUOTE ]
The funniest thing is how such an old routine still works like a charm.
I_Money
Moderator
Mike,
Could you touch on the training you recieved for formation flight? You make it sound like you instruct others while they are in their own airplane, next to you. What are the guidelines once you have recieved the training to do it? Do you only do it with same type? Is it an everyday training thing? It sounds like a lot of prep work goes into it; if you were at an airshow would you do a fly-by in form with an F-15 (after briefing ofcourse).
Could you touch on the training you recieved for formation flight? You make it sound like you instruct others while they are in their own airplane, next to you. What are the guidelines once you have recieved the training to do it? Do you only do it with same type? Is it an everyday training thing? It sounds like a lot of prep work goes into it; if you were at an airshow would you do a fly-by in form with an F-15 (after briefing ofcourse).
[ QUOTE ]
Mike,
Could you touch on the training you recieved for formation flight? You make it sound like you instruct others while they are in their own airplane, next to you. What are the guidelines once you have recieved the training to do it? Do you only do it with same type? Is it an everyday training thing? It sounds like a lot of prep work goes into it; if you were at an airshow would you do a fly-by in form with an F-15 (after briefing ofcourse).
[/ QUOTE ]
Formation work is generally done between similiar aircraft, though dissimiliar close formation work is done in some specific times such as airshow displays or emergency chase-type situations. In the Hog, formation had to be instructed with separate aircraft due to the jet only being a single seater. Other aircraft types you generally receive instruction in the two seater, then fly against the IP in a single-seater.
Mike,
Could you touch on the training you recieved for formation flight? You make it sound like you instruct others while they are in their own airplane, next to you. What are the guidelines once you have recieved the training to do it? Do you only do it with same type? Is it an everyday training thing? It sounds like a lot of prep work goes into it; if you were at an airshow would you do a fly-by in form with an F-15 (after briefing ofcourse).
[/ QUOTE ]
Formation work is generally done between similiar aircraft, though dissimiliar close formation work is done in some specific times such as airshow displays or emergency chase-type situations. In the Hog, formation had to be instructed with separate aircraft due to the jet only being a single seater. Other aircraft types you generally receive instruction in the two seater, then fly against the IP in a single-seater.