Question about flight following
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Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Flight following is done by the local controlling agency....
So let's do a hypothetical flight from Terre Haute, IN (KHUF) to Richmond, IN (KRID). About 30 miles in, you're going to come up on Indianapolis' airspace. If you're on flight following, they'll switch you over to Indy Approach who will establish two way comms, thus permitting you to enter the class C.
There is no separate "flight following" frequency to my knowledge, although in some areas they might put the VFR traffic on one frequency, but this is still done by the controlling agency, (in our example Indy Approach)
Make sense?
What happens after you leave IND, will IND switch you back to flight following?
Basically, in this example, you can either pass IND air space, or you can ask (someone...) to cross, so my question is - can you ask flight following permission to enter air space, and they check with local control in IND?
In NE for example I believe flight following is done by BOS Approach, but maybe I am wrong.
Basically, in this example, you can either pass IND air space, or you can ask (someone...) to cross, so my question is - can you ask flight following permission to enter air space, and they check with local control in IND?
In NE for example I believe flight following is done by BOS Approach, but maybe I am wrong.
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Okay, you're from Boston, this is even easier.
You're flying from Norwood (KOWD) out to, say, Ba' Ha'ba' up in Maine (KBHB). You take off and switch from Norwood to Boston Approach. From them you get flight following. (There is no ATC position called "flight following"). After you get past BOS (staying clear of the Bravo for simplicity's sake) you get up towards Portland, ME. BOS_APP transfers you over to Portland Approach. They establish 2 way comms and you're good to cross the C. You then clear their airspace and they'll either terminate you (squawk 1200 freq change approaved) or transfer you to the next facility (Boston Center probably). Then you would switch to Boston Center and they'd eventually terminate you.
You're flying from Norwood (KOWD) out to, say, Ba' Ha'ba' up in Maine (KBHB). You take off and switch from Norwood to Boston Approach. From them you get flight following. (There is no ATC position called "flight following"). After you get past BOS (staying clear of the Bravo for simplicity's sake) you get up towards Portland, ME. BOS_APP transfers you over to Portland Approach. They establish 2 way comms and you're good to cross the C. You then clear their airspace and they'll either terminate you (squawk 1200 freq change approaved) or transfer you to the next facility (Boston Center probably). Then you would switch to Boston Center and they'd eventually terminate you.
Okay, you're from Boston, this is even easier.
You're flying from Norwood (KOWD) out to, say, Ba' Ha'ba'
Hmmm...OK, because we flew from KLCI back to KBED over MHT we asked boston approach to enter MHT air space and approach cleared us, without transferring us over to MHT, so I was wondering how this is done...I assume they contact MHT and the clearance from them...?!
Chris_Ford
Well-Known Member
Most likely. I'm pretty sure it's called a "pointout"...
Some ATC can confirm
Some ATC can confirm
MSUDAWG
Well-Known Member
I dont think you are picking up on what they are trying to say....Flight Following is a service provided for VFR pilots so that the controllers can keep an eye on you and tell you where they want you to go and so that you will not mess up and do the wrong thing. If you call up XYZ Center and ask for flight following, they will give you a squak code and from then on they have their eye on you. Once you begin to leave their controlling area, they pass you on to the next controlling agency (or sometimes tell you to squak VFR and for further assistance contact _____ Center) whether it is an approach or whatever. Once you get close to arriving to your destination they will ask you if you have the airport and if so to squak vfr freq change approved.
So basically to answer your question, yes they pass you on to the next controller if you are passing through class C or B airspace and will give you certain headings and what not. Hypothetically speaking you become an IFR airplane opertaing under VFR conditions and mainting VFR separation from weather and traffic.... But once you tell you tell them where you are going and it takes you across the top of their airport and airspace, if it is busy they will vector you, if not they will prob tell you fly on course...
So basically to answer your question, yes they pass you on to the next controller if you are passing through class C or B airspace and will give you certain headings and what not. Hypothetically speaking you become an IFR airplane opertaing under VFR conditions and mainting VFR separation from weather and traffic.... But once you tell you tell them where you are going and it takes you across the top of their airport and airspace, if it is busy they will vector you, if not they will prob tell you fly on course...
Fox Xray
ATC
VFR flight following - you are in radar contact with ATC and receiving radar services. You will be pointed out and coordinated with all the sectors you fly through on your route. If your route will take you through an area that we cannot work out, such as an active warning area, MOA, etc, we will advise you of that active airspace and suggest a heading to avoid it.
I know exactly what flight following is. What I was trying to understand is what happens during flight following when I need/wish to cross class C or B air space, and the flight following presumably will continue after I pass that specific air space...which controller do I contact in order to get permission to cross that air space - is it the "flight following" controller (and he/she get the permission - 'point out' directly from the local controller), or do I contact local controller directly for that permission and then go back to "flight following controller"...?!
I believe I know the answer by now. Thanks to all for your responses.
I believe I know the answer by now. Thanks to all for your responses.
Just to clarify a little more, although I may be telling you something you already understand...
There is no such thing as a "flight following controller". There are only controllers. One of the duties that controllers do is supply flight following services. Each controller is in charge of their own chunk of airspace. They coordinate with the adjacent controllers as airplanes move back and forth across the boundaries. If you are recieving flight following services from a controller you can assume that they will coordinate with the controller whose airspace you will be entering next, no matter what kind of airspace it may be, or what kind of airspace you are in now. They will let the next controller know what you are doing, and will tell you when to change frequency to talk to the next guy. The Tower controllers, Approach controllers, and Center controllers all do (basically) the same thing, and handle flight following services (basically) the same way.
Now, that said, there are some special circumstances that you might run into, but the controllers will give you a hint about what is going on. In your example above where you crosssed MHT's airspace it was easier for the controller to "talk" to the MHT guy and "point out" your airplane and what you were doing, and get permission for you to pass through MHT's airspace and keep talking to you himself, rather than "handing you off" to MHT and then have you "handed off" right back to himself as you came out the other side of MHT's airspace. What may have confused you a little is that you asked him about crossing MHT's airspace, and then you recieved permission, when what would "normally" happen is that the controller would do exactly the same thing even if you hadn't asked. He would coordinate with the next controller and figure out the best way to handle your flight with the least amount of work for everyone.
There is another situation that you may run into on occasion, and it involves places where the communication between controllers is, well, old and antiquated. I have seen on occasion when transitioning from an approach control to a center controller for example that the controller will let you go (terminate flight following) and let you set up flight following with the next controller yourself. It doesn't happen often because most controllers will go out of their way to help pilots, but on occasion it can happen if the next controller is too busy and doesn't "answer the phone" when the first controller calls him up. In that case you may hear something like "Cessna 1234, flight following is terminated. Suggest you try Boston Center on 123.45 for service" (terminology might be wrong, idea is correct).
Just remember that VFR flight following is on a "work load permitting" basis for the controllers. Most will do their best to help you out, but sometimes they are just too busy so you might get dropped, or they will refuse to give you flight following when you call them up. It can also happen that they are so busy that they might not have an opportunity to call out traffic even if you are getting flight following. Their first priority is keeping IFR traffic from running into each other (or the ground), so you might be suprised to see another plane go zooming by 1/2 mile away with nary a word from the controller...rare, but it can happen.
Good question by the way. Figuring out how the pieces of the ATC puzzle go together can take a lot of ciphering sometimes.
There is no such thing as a "flight following controller". There are only controllers. One of the duties that controllers do is supply flight following services. Each controller is in charge of their own chunk of airspace. They coordinate with the adjacent controllers as airplanes move back and forth across the boundaries. If you are recieving flight following services from a controller you can assume that they will coordinate with the controller whose airspace you will be entering next, no matter what kind of airspace it may be, or what kind of airspace you are in now. They will let the next controller know what you are doing, and will tell you when to change frequency to talk to the next guy. The Tower controllers, Approach controllers, and Center controllers all do (basically) the same thing, and handle flight following services (basically) the same way.
Now, that said, there are some special circumstances that you might run into, but the controllers will give you a hint about what is going on. In your example above where you crosssed MHT's airspace it was easier for the controller to "talk" to the MHT guy and "point out" your airplane and what you were doing, and get permission for you to pass through MHT's airspace and keep talking to you himself, rather than "handing you off" to MHT and then have you "handed off" right back to himself as you came out the other side of MHT's airspace. What may have confused you a little is that you asked him about crossing MHT's airspace, and then you recieved permission, when what would "normally" happen is that the controller would do exactly the same thing even if you hadn't asked. He would coordinate with the next controller and figure out the best way to handle your flight with the least amount of work for everyone.
There is another situation that you may run into on occasion, and it involves places where the communication between controllers is, well, old and antiquated. I have seen on occasion when transitioning from an approach control to a center controller for example that the controller will let you go (terminate flight following) and let you set up flight following with the next controller yourself. It doesn't happen often because most controllers will go out of their way to help pilots, but on occasion it can happen if the next controller is too busy and doesn't "answer the phone" when the first controller calls him up. In that case you may hear something like "Cessna 1234, flight following is terminated. Suggest you try Boston Center on 123.45 for service" (terminology might be wrong, idea is correct).
Just remember that VFR flight following is on a "work load permitting" basis for the controllers. Most will do their best to help you out, but sometimes they are just too busy so you might get dropped, or they will refuse to give you flight following when you call them up. It can also happen that they are so busy that they might not have an opportunity to call out traffic even if you are getting flight following. Their first priority is keeping IFR traffic from running into each other (or the ground), so you might be suprised to see another plane go zooming by 1/2 mile away with nary a word from the controller...rare, but it can happen.
Good question by the way. Figuring out how the pieces of the ATC puzzle go together can take a lot of ciphering sometimes.
Actually, one more clarification question:
Does that mean that when I approach an air space that requires an approval to enter/cross, the "flight following controller" (and I know there is no such thing, I mean the controller who at that time provides the flight following service ) will get the approval himself, or do I need to request it?
Like in my example - did we have to contact "flight following" and tell him we want to cross MHT, or did he know ahead of time that this is what we intended to do (based on our track) and he would contact MHT even if we did not initiate the "request" with him?
Does that mean that when I approach an air space that requires an approval to enter/cross, the "flight following controller" (and I know there is no such thing, I mean the controller who at that time provides the flight following service
) will get the approval himself, or do I need to request it?Like in my example - did we have to contact "flight following" and tell him we want to cross MHT, or did he know ahead of time that this is what we intended to do (based on our track) and he would contact MHT even if we did not initiate the "request" with him?
The situation that you encountered is a slightly unusual one because normally the controller will not keep you on his frequency if you are entering someone else's airspace, but will rather transfer you to the controlling agency. He would be in hot water for providing services (flight following) in someone else's airspace without permission, just as you would be in trouble for entering that airspace without approval.Actually, one more clarification question:
Does that mean that when I approach an air space that requires an approval to enter/cross, the "flight following controller" (and I know there is no such thing, I mean the controller who at that time provides the flight following service
Like in my example - did we have to contact "flight following" and tell him we want to cross MHT, or did he know ahead of time that this is what we intended to do (based on our track) and he would contact MHT even if we did not initiate the "request" with him?
If I remember correctly MHT is Class C airspace (?). The requirement to enter Class C is to establish communications with the controlling agency, yes? If you were talking to Boston Approach and about to enter MHT's airspace, the usual scenario is that Boston will hand you off to MHT, and the fact that you are then talking to MHT is your clearance to enter their airspace. No special action required on your part. That is the way that it usually happens.
What you actually experienced is slightly different in that it appeared that you were not going to be transferred to talk to MHT, but Boston was going to keep handling you (see the references to a "point out" in posts above) through MHT's airspace. (You were probably just going to "skim" MHT's airspace, either at the top or one side, is my bet.) In this case you need to keep in mind that Boston cannot run you through MHT's airspace without permission from MHT (via "point out"), so you will, in effect, automatically recieve permission by virtue of the fact that you were talking to Boston and Boston was *talking* to MHT. While that is technically probably correct, I think that you did the right thing by asking for clarification from Boston just to be sure that you had clearance. On an IFR flight there would be no question, but VFR flight following is sometimes the poor second cousin so it is a good idea to double check on your status when you're unsure, since you may get *forgotten* and not handed off when you should have been (but that is very unlikely if you are squawking a discrete transponder code - not 1200).
Bottom line is that the controller should be handling the approval for you in a case like this. If you are unsure, though, it is appropriate that you question him about it, and I would probably say something simple like "Boston Approach, Cessna 1234, verify approval to enter Manchester Class Charlie".
casey
Well-Known Member
there is no such thing as a flight following controller.
example (among many)
im flying from somewhere, tx to somewhere else, tx and im going to pass through austin's class C airspace.
initially you are talking to houston center, same guy that works all the IFR traffic for whatever sector im in. When i approach 30-40nm from austin, center will hand me off to austin approach. Now im 1) talking to austin approach and 2) have a squawk and am radar identified, i have implicit permission to operate inside the class C airpsace. Dont have to ask anyone anything. The handoffs are all automatic and you will always be talking to the controller responsibile for the airspace you are in. The only caveat is that when entering class B you do need to make sure a controller says "cleared in class B" before you enter, aside from that everthing is automatic.
If you are going to penetrate a towers airspace, you will be handed off to that tower. If approach is going to keep you, he will coordinate with whoever he needs to.
JimmyDean
Well-Known Member
To completely simplify this particular situation:
There is no longer a facility called "Manchester Approach." The Boston and Manchester approach control facilities have been consolidated, and the new facility is simply called "Boston Approach."
In effect, you were already talking to the controller responsible for the Manchester Class C airspace you requested to transit. You had already satisfied the requirements to enter this airspace (two-way radio communications), even though the controller you were talking to didn't call himself "Manchester Approach."
