Pt 61- How many hours of Ground Instruction

zx6rrider

zx6rrider

Well-Known Member
Roughly how many hours of ground instruction do your students have logged before the checkride?

I'm getting ready to start my first student and am trying to figure out how much classroom time I really need to do. My PPL was 10 or so years ago and I did almost all self study, I think there are a few things that could have been covered better but overall it worked well. I've been looking at the Jeppesen syllabus and it covers everything in classroom. My thoughts are have them read the material and ask questions to see what they know and fill in what they dont, I cant imagine really needing 40+ hours of ground time
 
I personally had about 5 hours total, maybe a touch less. I did it part 61, and did all of the studying and reading on my own. My instructor would ask me a couple questions each day, I knew the answers, and we moved on. We discussed other things in the airplane.

I know every CFI is different, and so is every student. I didn't do the CFI thing, but I would think that if you are comfortable with their level of knowledge, and you have assessed them properly, you have done your job.
 
61.105 says they "must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or complete a home study course on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b)..."
They need to do some kind of classroom or other training on those subjects, but not necessarily from their instructor. I know there's lots of online and home-study courses that could be used to satisfy that requirement (sportys, king, etc). For the time it would take to teach them one on one, unless you can do a class with other students, it's probably not worth it. It would be more convenient and cost effective for the student to buy one of those courses and do it at home. So that part covers the requirements for the written or knowledge portion and that's what you're giving them the endorsement for, to take the written. I think most of those courses will actually give them an endorsement once they complete it as well if you want to go that route. If you endorse them, it does specify that you need to review their home study course. (61.103). Either way you will have to do some ground with them to review the deficient areas if they don't score 100%.

61.107 says they "must receive and log ground and flight training from an authorized instructor on the areas of operation ... that apply to the aircraft category and class sought." (I'm paraphrasing a little but that's the gist.)
It goes on to list a bunch of things in part (b) (1) for single engine. Those parts they must receive and LOG ground training from you for in order to be eligible for the practical exam. That's not to say you can't give them more if needed, but that's the minimum.

Lots of that stuff is the more practical aspect of things, like having them actually plan a cross-country to teach them navigation etc. They can read and watch DVD's all day long, but some things will require one on one instruction to catch and correct their mistakes, and those are the minimum.

There's no minimum requirement for the actual time spent. Personally, I would have them do a home study course for the written, there's lots of very good ones out there. That will take care of that aspect of it, then just make sure you hit all of the required subjects in 61.107 and log the ground time at some point during their training. Once you've done all that, and reviewed their deficient areas (and endorsed them for it), I would spend some additional time as required quizzing them on all of the areas in the PTS. Emphasize that the more of this they study and know, the less they will have to spend on ground time with you.

The total time spent will depend on the student and how much reading they do on their own. It certainly doesn't need to be 40 hours though.

Hope that helps.
 
That's what I was hoping to hear, thanks for the responses.

We are using the Jeppesen kit since that is what the local FBO uses in case I have questions and gives me a chance to use the more experienced instructors for stage checks (2nd opinions). I knew there was no min time requirement but didn't know if it was normal to have very little ground or if my initial training was unusual. I told him on the intro flight it would be mainly self study but if he really wanted to I could teach him, just cost a lot more that way. This was mainly to help me get a feel for what other people ended up with. Thanks
 
I'm not an instructor (yet :)), I don't have any numbers, and I don't know if this is relevant to your setup, but I worked the front desk at my Pt 61 flight school for a while and noticed that how much ground students end up doing depended heavily on weather and equipment. If the weather was bad or the plane was broken, rather than canceling the lesson altogether, the school would 99% of the time just switch the flight lesson to a ground lesson unless the student objected strongly ("I wanted to go flying and I'm not paying for a ground lesson I don't need!"), which was really rare. There was always something for the instructor to go over, even if the student had done a lot on their own, to make sure they had the right level of detail and interpretation of information. This is of course in addition to what others have already said--your student's willingness to do their "homework" will be a crucial factor. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it could vary a lot often depending on circumstances outside of your plans and even outside the natural gradient of student diligence and preparation.
 
I doubt that the instructors were only doing ground lessons due to bad weather, my guess is they would have been doing those lessons anyway but are choosing to do them on a day with bad weather to make good use of time. That's what I do with my students. I plan their training that way so that we're not sitting inside going over a ground lesson during perfect flying weather. The amount of training is generally the instructor's discretion as long as it meets the minimum requirements, but I for one don't give out my endorsements unless I've made very sure that they are ready for whatever I'm signing them off for. Different instructors will have different views on what needs to be done, and different students will require different amounts of ground instruction. The only way to determine that is to ask them questions and have them do the work, and that all takes time.

Just be honest when you're billing your time, and make sure that you're not having them do things they don't need. You had the right idea with asking them questions and trying to find their weak areas and fixing them. I'm sure if you ask any student, they would much prefer doing an extra few hours of ground with you than getting a pink slip from the DPE and having to pay them and you again. And remember, ground training is a LOT cheaper than flight training, so make sure they're totally up to speed on things before putting them in the airplane.
 
zx6rrider said:
That's what I was hoping to hear, thanks for the responses.

We are using the Jeppesen kit since that is what the local FBO uses in case I have questions and gives me a chance to use the more experienced instructors for stage checks (2nd opinions). I knew there was no min time requirement but didn't know if it was normal to have very little ground or if my initial training was unusual. I told him on the intro flight it would be mainly self study but if he really wanted to I could teach him, just cost a lot more that way. This was mainly to help me get a feel for what other people ended up with. Thanks
Click to expand...

Having used Jepp this is what I do.

1. Have the student read the text book and do the questions. I will also give them additional homework, usually some of the free on-line courses. For example, with airspace I will have them do the AOPA ASF Airspace course. At some point I have them do the Mountain Flying course (usually in conjunction with the performance chapter). I have notes in my copy of the Jepp syllabus about these courses.
2. Review the answers to questions. If there are issues with answers we go more in depth.
3. The text and questions may give the rote and understand, but not application and correlation. So most of my ground will concentrate on the AC of RUAC. For example, when going over the Pitot/static system I may pull up the luiz monterio pitot/static simulator and go through scenarios on it. WIth weather I start them day 1 with basics such as reading a METAR/TAF. For performance we go over their POH performance charts and I have them fill out a performance card that I made up. One of the things that drives me nuts is CFI's who wait to do all of this until right before a check ride like it's an afterthought. It should be integrated into the training.
4. For records I make anotations in the back of their logbook and keep a 1" binder with their records- course completion certificates, photcopies of endoresments, etc. Remember, in the eyes of the FAA if it is not recorded it never happened. I have inherited more than one student who was "ready for the check ride" only to find they had no ground annotated in their log book.
5. I find that initially we spend quite a bit of time on ground- at least a 1:1 ground to flying ratio at first between covering subjects, prebriefing and debriefing. At some points this decreases, at other points it may be more.

Remember, there is much more to flying than just moving sticks. Most fatal accidents can be traced back to decisions that were made before the ignition was turned to start. Take the time to teach these things.
 
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Thanks for the helpful response Blackhawk- I've never seen that pitot static simulator, that will definitely be useful. I planned on using some of the ASF courses and probably an occasional youtube video, got any other helpful links you'd like to share?
 
I'm on the road but will try to post some when I get home. faasafety.gov has some good courses as well. Student pilots can sign up for this, they just need to call the help desk to do so as it does not recognize student pilot certificate numbers.
 
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