Procedure Turn Question

Malko

Malko

ughhh
Staff member
I am drawing a blank for some reason, but anyway, just a quick question regarding PT's when flying the full approach vs. radar vectors. For example, on this approach.... I fly to LAAKE and then go outbound before starting the PT. MY question is do you go outbound for 1 minute or 2 before starting the PT outbound? I know it must be done within 10 nm but I am blanking on the 1 vs. 2 minute thing...

thanks....
 
Really, it's completely up to you! Some folks fly for 1, some fly for 2. I make the decision based on a couple of things. How much altitude will I have to lose? How fast am I going? Will I have to slow down significantly? Am I in a hurry?

If the weather is coming down quickly, then it may be good to do a 1-min outbound leg. If I'm 3000 feet higher than I need to be, I may want to fly outbound for 2 minutes to lose some altitude.

My final answer? Situationally dependant.
 
That's what I thought. My CFII always had me going 1 minute and then last week went to a checkride brief session and the CFII there was adamant about it being 2 minutes. We'll just hope the DE goes with the "it depends" reasoning.
 
The most important thing is making sure you're inside the 10NM radius; as far as timing, you can even use 1:30 when PT outbound if you wanted to.
 
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The most important thing is making sure you're inside the 10NM radius; as far as timing, you can even use 1:30 when PT outbound if you wanted to.

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Beat me to it... that's what I was taught, as long as you stay in the allotted area, you're good to go.
 
I remember something about 1 min if the IAF is off the field and 2 mins if the IAF is on the field...I might be wrong...but yeah above all it doesnt matter as long as you stay within the 10 mile ring.
 
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I remember something about 1 min if the IAF is off the field and 2 mins if the IAF is on the field...

[/ QUOTE ]Pretty common. Idea is that with an off-airport IAF/FAF, 1 minute outbound is enough since even if you're not really stable, you have the FAF as a guidepost. With an on-airport IAF/no FAF, you don't have that extra fix and want to makes sure you;re completely established inbound. The extra minute gives you that time.
 
I use time Ive used up to 3 minutes before on some and 1 on others. Pretty much what Mtsu said is what I generally do. If im in the 310 well one minute works pretty good the good old skyhawk I set the timer take a quick nap wake up in a few minutes than do it.
One way Ive also been shown is (only works on ILS) when flying outbound you will fly through the glideslope meaning the needle will come up once its centered start the procedure turn then. This has worked everytime for me.
But as it has been said as long you stay in the 10 mile donut hole you good
 
When I first got my instrument ticket, I was going into Idaho Falls on the ILS. Crossing the fix outbound, I was impressed that I had 180 knots groundspeed on the DME in a 120 knot airplane. I flew out for two minutes (6 miles) then turned on the 45 for 1 minute (about 3 miles) then another minute in the turn. Halfway through the turn I flipped the DME to miles and I was twelve miles out. The Grand Tetons are in that direction. Established inbound, the groundspeed went to 60 and I descended into the clouds to intercept altitude and started accumulating ice. I had about 9 minutes to fly in the ice before GS intercept. ATIS called for a 1000' ceiling and I broke out at 1000' AGL with 3" of rime all over the front of a Cardinal and no view out the windshield. Touched down with full power and a frozen pitot tube. Temperature on the ground was below freezing, so the Cardinal was on static display for several hours.

If I had to do it again, after seeing the high groundspeed, I would have started the procedure turn zero minutes after the fix, not one or two minutes. And once ice started accumulating, I would have gone to a localizer approach and bombed down to MDA, which was below the ceiling.

The purpose of going out for a minute or two is to give you time to get established and stable inbound.

Reference AIM 5-4-9: "However, the point at which the turn may be commenced and the type and rate of turn is left to the discretion of the pilot." 90/270, 45/180/45, Cuban Eights, wingovers are all okay. Stay within the prescribed distance, above the prescribed altitude and turn on the charted side of the course.
 
I think wind should play an important part in deciding when to make the PT. The other day I nearly went beyond 10NM in a 172 because of a stiff tailwind (30kts or so). I was also flying at about 100kts instead of usual 90kts.

Although not directly related, I learned something new yesterday. An old DE recomended to me that while outbout on the PT one should fly for 1 minute, or till full diflection of the CDI. Whichever comes last. That way, if you have a stiff headwind when outbound on your PT, you won't have to bank it over to re-intercept inbound approach course.

-Dave
 
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That's what I thought. My CFII always had me going 1 minute and then last week went to a checkride brief session and the CFII there was adamant about it being 2 minutes. We'll just hope the DE goes with the "it depends" reasoning.

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If your DE is conforming to the Practical Test Standards, then this issue should not even arise. The PTS does not dictate how many minutes to fly outbound, obviously considering the above comments.

In my dual life, when I am CFI-I-ing, I have my students go 2 minutes. It builds some thinking time into their approach. When I am freight-dogging, I prefer 1 minute beause it saves my employer about $20.
 
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