Pro Course now $45,000

How does he justify the price increases? Aviator is now only slightly cheaper than ATP. For that price you get an instructor (if you're lucky), elderly planes that have seen better days, hopeless management and a French dude with a shady past and bad time keeping.

Now just isn't the time to be getting into flight training I'm afraid. Training costs are escalating and the regionals are not paying more. The economy is going into recession and the aviation hiring machine will soon change to a firing machine. By the end of this year I think things will have gone all wrong and the last thing you want to be stuck with is $45,000 of debt. Find a more affordable way to train and refuse to pay these insane prices.

Maybe Ari Cohen, could tell us why the price has increased?
 
How does he justify the price increases? Aviator is now only slightly cheaper than ATP. For that price you get an instructor (if you're lucky), elderly planes that have seen better days, hopeless management and a French dude with a shady past and bad time keeping.

Now just isn't the time to be getting into flight training I'm afraid. Training costs are escalating and the regionals are not paying more. The economy is going into recession and the aviation hiring machine will soon change to a firing machine. By the end of this year I think things will have gone all wrong and the last thing you want to be stuck with is $45,000 of debt. Find a more affordable way to train and refuse to pay these insane prices.

Maybe Ari Cohen, could tell us why the price has increased?

I'm having a difficult time to not perceive how naive any individuals with a lick of common sense can ask such a question then make absurd recommendations. You gonna ask the oil industry and gas stations to justify a price increase? Go ahead - ask them. Write a letter to Exon, Shell, BP and ask them to explain the price increase. No, better yet, how about you doing the math for me, please?

You recommended in a previous post:
Don't get me wrong the Duchess is/was a great plane but they are getting a little long in the tooth now.

OK, then you follow that with:

For that price you get an instructor (if you're lucky), elderly planes that have seen better days,. . .
Don't fly a beat up airplane; fly a beat up airplane. Which one is it?

Then you say,
I'd consider paying the extra for something decent like one of the DA42's. They are brand new and cost very little extra.

Very little extra huh?

Let's see. . .Bottom line DA42 - $265 an hour; 190 hours is $52000! Oh, sorry, that's not including housing either. All this being said in addition to your doom and gloom about the airline industry. Oh, and where are the opportunities for instructor ratings?

Heck, anyone with common sense can easily understand the price increase. . .I think.

Think medicine, medicine.
 
Still sucks but what can you do. The price was 35k last year when I first found out about Ari-Ben. It's still cheaper then in europe though. Got to be greatfull for that :)
 
How does he justify the price increases? Aviator is now only slightly cheaper than ATP. For that price you get an instructor (if you're lucky), elderly planes that have seen better days, hopeless management and a French dude with a shady past and bad time keeping.

Now just isn't the time to be getting into flight training I'm afraid. Training costs are escalating and the regionals are not paying more. The economy is going into recession and the aviation hiring machine will soon change to a firing machine. By the end of this year I think things will have gone all wrong and the last thing you want to be stuck with is $45,000 of debt. Find a more affordable way to train and refuse to pay these insane prices.

Maybe Ari Cohen, could tell us why the price has increased?

The Chief Pilot is a very integral person with, as far as I know, a very honorable past. He knows as much about the Duchess as her original engineers do. He is a very experienced, and proficient pilot. Walk a mile in another's shoes before you criticize them, and judge not unless you yourself want to be judged; why don't you go and become a CP at a very busy flight school, then come back here and tell us you keep a tight schedule? I'll tell you why: because once you are the mediator between the students, instructors, and management, and you are expected to fulfill the duties of both a manager and an examiner/instructor; considering that you will be working in the Aviation Industry in which delays are an inherent reality, you will have to prioritize.

I think that you should consider reading up on topics you discuss. A little bit of research will show you that the Regional Airline Industry is not looking at a recession, just a slow down. As far as I have read, Industry Analysts are projecting a 1.7 (give or take) percent growth in the Industry for 2008! That is small, but still more than fifty percent of last year's growth of 2.2 percent. (The Wall Street Journal would be a great place to start.)

Here's a thought: the price increase could be reflective of the cost increase! Oil is not cheap, and consequently, neither are parts or other necessities of business. Furthermore, it is assumable, that perhaps employee costs are greater as well. In Exemplia: An increase in student enrollment requires and increase in available instructors. An increase in demand requires an increase in means - more planes. And subsequently, an increase in equipment and capacity requires an increase in the many supporting factions (everything from mechanics, fuel, parts, insurance, even more paper for the dispatch sheets.) Here's a basic economic principle: one must increase supply in order to satisfy demand. If one increases supply, which is "production", then operating costs will rise proportionally.

ATP is currently advertising their Pro Course for $54,995. There is a lot I can do with $9,995. $9,995 is $9,995 more not spent; i.e. smaller loan, which in turn means savings of an exponential value (factoring in interest rates.) I know very few people who sniff at ten grand, you must be loaded! Yet, in the same breath you tell us how students will be massively in debt. Why not just go the extra ten grand, being that it is only a "slight" difference?

Every Aviator student I know, has an instructor. The planes are older, and they have seen better days; however, that keeps costs low. Here's another economic principle: make a profit. If your costs (as a business owner) increase, pass it on to the consumer. Machines are built to last forever. It is a matter of how well they are maintained that dictates their longevity. So tell me, if at your local FBO you have the choice between a Twinstar at $265 an hour, with minimum Twinstar-Time requirements, a security deposit, and renters insurance, or a Duchess at $200 an hour, with a one hour checkout, and substantially cheaper insurance (if any), which will you choose? Oh, I almost forgot; ten grand is mere pocket change, so what is an extra $65 (looking purely at the hourly rate)? Silly me.

ErikN: it is undesirable that the price should jump. Unfortunately, such is the way of the world.
 
There are many reasons to raise prices other than increased costs--

Prices will always go up as long as people are willing to pay for it--Market forces always dictate fair market value-

The price of gas is high because people are willing to pay for it--as long as there is sustained demand prices will go up--As long as people are willing to pay for it of course-once demand goes down, there are price drops to bring supply back in line with demand.

Way back when I ran a business--I would actually raise prices to slow demand so that the service I could provide was not compromised. Even if costs go down, raising prices helps modify service delivery while increasing the bottom line---

For example--If you provide a service that is good--and volume increased to maximum capacity--any increased volume would have a negative effect on your service delivery (can't deliver what you promise) and your demand goes down which is bad--

By raising prices in a good environment--you serve less customers BUT they are paying more so you actually increase bottom line (which if properly managed means you can increase the ability to meet higher volume requirements). This also promotes positive customer service (happy customers) who are willing to pay more for better service.

Sorry for the microeconomics class but the short of it is that maybe business is good when business is good, you bump prices a little to maximize the bottom line (after all--that is the point of running a biz--making the $$) and to ensure that customers are satisfied.

:)
 
Just $65hr more for training on a Twinstar; I think that's good value. They are new, comfortable, reliable, safe and have modern avionics that work all of the time. The Aviator planes were old, unreliable, with checkered histories, had a mixture of antique avionics that made training a whole lot tougher. The biggest problem with the Duchess compared to the Twinstar from an operators perspective was running costs. Parts are rare and more expensive meaning they are often taken from wrecks. The Twinstar is selling fast and parts are freely available and sensibly priced. The biggest plus on the Twinstar is fuel burn, it's low! With gas prices going higher this is very important. In the other thread, someone asked how a $500,000 DA42 could cost just a bit more to rent than a $120,000 BE76. I guess here's your aswer......big purchase cost but low running costs narrow the gap. Many Florida schools have invested in the DA42 for just that reason and I think Mike's reluctance to invest in his school means Aviator has no long term future. If I did it all over again I'd get the 100 multi box (for the airlines) ticked by training in a DA42 and do the rest in a glass 172. It would probably work out a little cheaper than Aviator too!

The Chief Pilot is a very integral person with, as far as I know, a very honorable past. He knows as much about the Duchess as her original engineers do. He is a very experienced, and proficient pilot. Walk a mile in another's shoes before you criticize them, and judge not unless you yourself want to be judged; why don't you go and become a CP at a very busy flight school, then come back here and tell us you keep a tight schedule?
What, spending a year at the French naval academy, washing out, coming over here and pretending to be some big ex fighter jock to flight school students is honorable? Sure, the dude knows a bit about the plane but if you'd spent thousands of hours flying the thing you'd know a bit about it too. When I was there he was a major source of training delays, had no idea how to prioritize, delegate and act as a manager. And why would anyone want to work as a CP at a flight school is beyond me; you'd have to be desperate. I'll stick to the airline gig I think. Well Danzig, I sure hope you're right about the economy but aviation has always been a very cyclical industry.
 
FF you can't put out info like that and not back it up. Pierre was/is one of the good guys at the school. There are a lot of POS's at the school but I can't see Pierre being one of them.
 
The economy is going into recession and the aviation hiring machine will soon change to a firing machine.
Maybe Ari Cohen, could tell us why the price has increased?

Economics 101 FF, A recession is two consecutive quarters (that six months for us public school kids) of NEGATIVE GDP. In the US we've had a slight slow down in the growth of the GDP (still positive growth) but no negative growth at all. Eagle made 52 Million in profit last year, most of the regionals are profitable, you really think their slowing down?

Stop watching CNN and hit those books FF, and don't forget your MEDs!

You'd think is was an election year!! Oh, wait.....?
Bill
 
Guys,

When trying to convey a point with an individual whose agenda is always negative/derogatory and never objective or openminded, facts don't matter to them. What it does do, however, is for others to provide an unbiased, analytical perspective to everyone else to allow them the opportunity to make an informed decision about their selection of schools/FBOs, or purchases of a used airplane in order to gain flying experience. All are viable options. All have pros and cons to include less than effective management, bad airplanes, instructors, etc.

Just like pilots. . .or those who call themselves pilots. Negative posts, like I've seen particularly on this thread, reveal to me not all pilots are professional. That, more than anyone else, hurts the profession.

Due diligence.
 
FF you can't put out info like that and not back it up. Pierre was/is one of the good guys at the school.

I can back it up or I wouldn't put it out there. I'd rather not show you the smoking gun but I have hard evidence of what I said. I was shown this evidence a while ago and have held off mentioning it. I wish I hadn't but I've done it now so.... FACT is he was briefly in the French Navy for ONE YEAR, not enough time to complete military flight training. Fine, the military isn't for everyone but why claim to be a fighter jock? FACT is he has no major turbine time, let alone a hot jet. See if he dares to tell you I'm wrong.

As for the costs, if you did 100 hrs in a DA42 at $265hr and 100hrs of safety pilot time building $133hr it would add up to about $40,000. Add 15 hrs in a glass C172 at about $2500 and it would still only add up to $42,500. Add accomodation and you'll come out at about the same price as the new Pro Course price. How is this a good deal? Ari?
 
As for the costs, if you did 100 hrs in a DA42 at $265hr and 100hrs of safety pilot time building $133hr it would add up to about $40,000. Add 15 hrs in a glass C172 at about $2500 and it would still only add up to $42,500. Add accomodation and you'll come out at about the same price as the new Pro Course price. How is this a good deal? Ari?

Sounds to me like another option for those who wish not to fly a Duchess. What's your specific point? Everyone knows, especially through the internet, of the many programs out there as good as, better than, and perhaps worse than others?

Help me please? Define fighter jock? Does being a P-51 pilot qualify one as a pilot jock? Does it have to be a jet in order to qualify as a pilot jock? If so, are we degrading those who flew during WWII? What's the difference between 'major' turbine time and 'minor' turbine time?

. . .and the guy's got military time? Anyone else. . .as if that matters? Yep, the military aint for everyone; some know in advance they don't have what it takes.
 
I can back it up or I wouldn't put it out there. I'd rather not show you the smoking gun but I have hard evidence of what I said. I was shown this evidence a while ago and have held off mentioning it. I wish I hadn't but I've done it now so.... FACT is he was briefly in the French Navy for ONE YEAR, not enough time to complete military flight training. Fine, the military isn't for everyone but why claim to be a fighter jock? FACT is he has no major turbine time, let alone a hot jet. See if he dares to tell you I'm wrong.
Even if you are right, who cares?
I have been to a lot of flight schools and by far Pierre is the best Chief out of them. I just don't see the point (if true) of calling Pierre out.
 
In response to your question, the main reason the price has increased is the price of fuel today. Since August the price per barrel of crude oil has gone from $70.00-$91.00.,(2 weeks ago it was at over $100.00 a barrel.) Since one of our main expenses at Aviator is fuel, we have to raise our price in order to survive in today's market. The price has also increased since we have acquired 3 more BE-76's along with some other major impovements in the school which I will be able to annouce in the next couple of weeks.
 
In response to your question, the main reason the price has increased is the price of fuel today. Since August the price per barrel of crude oil has gone from $70.00-$91.00.,(2 weeks ago it was at over $100.00 a barrel.) Since one of our main expenses at Aviator is fuel, we have to raise our price in order to survive in today's market. The price has also increased since we have acquired 3 more BE-76's along with some other major impovements in the school which I will be able to annouce in the next couple of weeks.

Thanks for the update Ari, I'm sure mr. negativity will have something wise and unintelligible to say. Got pictures of the new Duchess's yet?

Remember FF Think Medication!!!:panic:

Bill
 
Thanks for the update Ari, I'm sure mr. negativity will have something wise and unintelligible to say. Got pictures of the new Duchess's yet?

Remember FF Think Medication!!!:panic:

Bill

I'll beat him to the punch!

Oil? Since when does the price of oil have to do with rising gas prices? I believe it's a Mike conspiracy with Osama Bin Laden to raise prices for Mike's retirement home in the Bahamas. After all, I heard a rumor he had some island brochures on his desk. :D
 
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