Pro and Cons for organizing?

mrivc211

mrivc211

Well-Known Member
We just had a new pay proposal offered to us from managment. Many of the pilots don't like the proposal and are talking about bringing a union on property. I'd like to hear some of the pros and cons of doing such from people who have dealt with unions First Hand ONLY please
Sorry if I'm coming off harsh, but this isn't a time for high schoolers to talk about their uncles union from the 50's.
 
I've been on both sides of the union fence.

It's not a cure-all, but look around the pilot lounge and try to point out about ten people that you think are willing to 'go to the wall', be able to point fingers across the table at he company and lead the fight. If you can't find at least a few that meet that characteristic, I wouldn't bother.

Because what they'll probably do is cut benefits deeper and probably make you fight to negotiate back to where you started, unless they know you have resolve, are organized and willing to scrap.

But if there are a bunch of candyasses with the "I love this job, I'd do it for free!" meandering around the pilot lounge, don't waste your time.
 
I guess I missed the question too!
smile.gif


I was with a regional both pre- and post-union so I had a chance to experience, first hand, how they treat you before and after.

Before you send in your union cards, a company is going to start showing how good of a deal it is to NOT have a union. They'll do whatever it takes to keep at least 50% plus one pilot happy. There may be even some random firings of some of the more vocal "we need a union, now!" crowd in order to break resolve. And it's not all that hard to break it because, at least at my previous regional, there were always a stream of fresh new hires that haven't quite clued in how the whole airline thing works yet and lots of cases of STS (shiny turboprop syndrome -- it was the early 1990s!). Be prepared for a lot of people with the 'Dude, I make more than I did as a CFI and I don't have to wrassle-up my own students' attitude that are deathly afraid of rocking the boat.

If you DO send in your union cards, expect the company to do whatever it's got to do in order to invalidate the vote because their biggest fear isn't you organizing, it's the OTHER employee groups organizing.

If you are successful, it DOES NOT mean instant respect from management or increased benefits. From what I've seen from my airline experience with being the only organized labor group on campus, the company is more than willing to kick you in the scrotum in order to make a point with the other employee groups that 'unions are bad, evil, etc'. Just like after 9/11 around an AFA vote, they furloughed pilots without a breath, but then created all of these 'leave programs' for the flight attendants with memos like "being non-union means that we have the flexibility to offer you voluntary leave programs". The union vote went down in flames because "They like us! They really like us!" and then they started furloughing flight attendants because there was no longer a threat of organizing.

If you're the only union on campus, the other employees may treat you like absolute crap. I've seen it at two airlines. Prepare to be 'lectured' by everyone about how you're destroying the 'family' with an evil union!

They will do everything they've got to do to make an example out of your employee group.

If you've got the leadership and the will within the pilot group, it can be a net positive. But like I said in the previous post, if there's a bunch of candyasses meandering about the pilot lounge that get skittish at the first sign of adversity, it's a waste. A union is only as effective as it's individual pilots. National isn't going to save you, but the guy you see every morning in the layover hotel mirror can.
 
We get that stuff here all the time. trying to turn other divisions of the company against the pilots. And most of our people are unionized. But "we missed out on flying, b/c the Pilot union wouldnt accept this" and that type of stuff is a normal occurance. And you are right, there is going to be a handful of guys that are elected that are going to be making those huge decisions, and if you just dont have those type of people who are willing to fight for ya and see whats really going on, you arent going to have a union.
 
"A union is only as effective as it's individual pilots."

Amen.

I can't really see any cons in the union, in my situation, that wouldn't also apply if the union didn't exist, other than paying dues. The pro's are numerous. In my book, and considering who I work for, there is no doubt that I'm better off as a union member. I guess that could be different from place to place, so your mileage may vary. If nothing else, you guys should use the threat of a union to get a better deal. Bottom line, does your company treat you well enough for you to keep a union off the property? Each pilot must answer that for himself. How does the ASA buyout play into the picture?
 
The buyout hasn't changed anything that we can see. The companies are being operated separately under a holding corporation.

We've used the threat of a union before. It's been voted down so many times I'm not sure the threat carries any weight anymore.

Omar, I can't find that website you were telling me about. PM me with it, please.
 
[ QUOTE ]
But if there are a bunch of candyasses with the "I love this job, I'd do it for free!" meandering around the pilot lounge, don't waste your time.

[/ QUOTE ]or with the "it's just a wish list" mentality...grrr...
 
[ QUOTE ]
How does the ASA buyout play into the picture

[/ QUOTE ]

From:

Skywest.com

Will the airlines merge or run separate?

SkyWest Airlines and ASA are both large successful regional airlines with unique company cultures. They will continue to run as separate entities, including separate FAA operating certificates, management, workforces, etc. Unions will continue to represent the ASA workgroups that are currently represented.

The holding company will launch a " Best Practices " initiative to learn from both airlines' strengths and better realize efficiencies, such as the overhead areas of information technology and other administrative functions. The collective synergy of both airlines creates a powerful force as an independent yet cohesive alliance. As the strongest regional alliance in the country, there will be opportunities to learn from each other and adopt the best practices of both operations.


Can't access the company website from my PC (dont know why)
but in a memo it was CLEARLY stated all growth will go to the carrier that has the lowest cost.

Whipsaw.
 
BTW- I might not be able to come to NJC this year because of our self renouned new PBS bidding system. I was assigned three day trips that start on FRI and end on SUN. Those are the exact days I requested off. I bid in the 20th percentile. In other words 80% is under me.
 
For the first few months you'll curse the existence of PrefBid, then you'll wonder how you ever lived without it. I haven't worked a weekend in months ...

RSB
 
Omar,
If you don't mind me asking, what did you put in your first layer? Without looking at the pairings, I don't see how you couln't get weekends or at least partial weekends off.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Omar,
If you don't mind me asking, what did you put in your first layer? Without looking at the pairings, I don't see how you couln't get weekends or at least partial weekends off.

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah- I'd like to know that too?
 
I'm 37/43 in FAT on the RJ and I got 4 on 3 off, 4 on 4 off, 4 on 6 off, 4 on. I only work two weekend days the whole month, both sundays. I bid 4 day trips with showtimes after 8am in my first layer and 4 day trips any showtime in my second layer. I didnt request any days off. 2 trips were from the first layer, and two from the second. If i'm that far down the seniority list and got 2 weekends off and two partial weekends off I think the people in front of me are doing something wrong in their bids. Email one of the PBS people and see if you did something in your bid that hurt your schedule
 
[ QUOTE ]
Can't access the company website from my PC (dont know why)
but in a memo it was CLEARLY stated all growth will go to the carrier that has the lowest cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must have missed that memo.

[ QUOTE ]
If i'm that far down the seniority list and got 2 weekends off and two partial weekends off I think the people in front of me are doing something wrong in their bids.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, so many people just assumed that it would suck, decided that they hated it before it even started, and because of that, didn't take any time to learn how to use it. End result, they didn't put in a good bid, and got bad results. I think it's great.
 
Doug Taylor said:
But if there are a bunch of candyasses with the "I love this job, I'd do it for free!" meandering around the pilot lounge, don't waste your time.
Click to expand...
Doug, did you actually work at SkyWest? Or are you just psychic?! :)

To be fair, though, there are plenty of guys and gals that are ready to fight for us, too. It's just that they're less annoying than the candy-asses, so they don't stand out as much.
 
Ralgha said:
[ QUOTE ]
all growth will go to the carrier that has the lowest cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

I must have missed that memo.

[ QUOTE ]
Ralgha,
You have to read between the lines just a bit, but I think he was referring to this little gem from the merger FAQ:

"SkyWest, Inc. will be in the unique position of allocating resources, including growth aircraft to the two carriers, so it is imperative that both carriers have competitive cost structures to support future growth opportunities. Each carrier may arrive at competitive costs in different ways."

The way I read it, "competetive cost structures" could be pretty easily translated to "the lowest paid pilots." Maybe I'm being cynical, but unless we merge with ASA, I don't see this as being a positive for either pilot group. Senior management has said they have no intention of "whipsaw" tactics, but how can they not?
Click to expand...
 
Proof of Whipsawing

Ralgha said:
[ QUOTE ]
Can't access the company website from my PC (dont know why)
but in a memo it was CLEARLY stated all growth will go to the carrier that has the lowest cost.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE] I must have missed that memo.[/ QUOTE]

Ahhh, I knew I'd find it. It's off the website at www.skywest.com/qa/index.php

And I quote:

"What about the employees: common pay, seniority, benefits, travel, etc?
The companies will operate independently, so not everything will be the same. The SkyWest, Inc. pay philosophies of being fair to employees while maintaining a competitive cost structure will be applied to both companies, but this does not necessarily mean that all pay scales will be identical. SkyWest, Inc. will be in the unique position of allocating resources, including growth aircraft to the two carriers, so it is imperative that both carriers have competitive cost structures to support future growth opportunities. Each carrier may arrive at competitive costs in different ways.

Seniorities will not be merged since the companies are independent.

There are many questions and issues regarding employee travel privileges and benefits that we will have to work through. This may take some time, and there will not be immediate answers. Our general guiding principle will be to improve wherever possible.

Note: Currently, ASA pilots and flight attendants have an open contract. "
Click to expand...
 
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