Practice approaches make you IFR??

W

wolf79

Well-Known Member
Ok, so I was doing practice approaches with one of my students. I got the typical, radio call...turn 230 intercept the localizer clear ILS 31, then was told to either cancel IFR with him or call a phone number. I told him were weren't IFR but VFR and his reply was that I was indeed IFR when he cleared me for the approach. I have done many a practice approach and haven't ever been instructed to cancel IFR.

So does getting cleared for an approach make you IFR?

Thanks
 
If he confirmed to you that you were IFR, I guess that means you have just received a popup IFR clearance? Never heard it done that way before and I think it would open up the controller to alot of liability?


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Usually they will say no visual separation if you only fly VFR approach. I guess it is just the ATC interprets the regulation in diff. way.
 
wolf79 said:
I told him were weren't IFR but VFR and his reply was that I was indeed IFR when he cleared me for the approach...

So does getting cleared for an approach make you IFR?
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Considering the controller's assumptions could easily place someone in violation of 61.3(e) or 61.57(c), since someone requesting a practice approach in VFR conditions might either not be current and in which case they are not permitted to operated under an IFR clearance -or- they might not even hold an instrument rating to begin with.

I'd say this controller needs to be corrected, soon.
 
rframe said:
Considering the controller's assumptions could easily place someone in violation of 61.3(e) or 61.57(c), since someone requesting a practice approach in VFR conditions might either not be current and in which case they are not permitted to operated under an IFR clearance -or- they might not even hold an instrument rating to begin with.

I'd say this controller needs to be corrected, soon.
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I had the exact thing happen to me a few months back--doing practice approaches and then asked to cancel IFR. When I got on the ground I called them on a land line and asked why I was asked to cancel. The supervisor on the phone was puzzled to say the least and thanked me for the call. She said one day that kind of mix up could cause an issue.
 
When you do a practice app here to a satilite airport they have us cancel. You are givin ifr seperation. A change made in the last few years. If I can find the reference I will post it.
 
Kinda interested to find out how you setup the practice approaches? Around here alot of times instructor/student will ask for a tower-enroute for the first approach then cancel and complete the rest in VFR... otherwise you setup like flight following and your VFR the whole time. But going IFR then cancelling and finishing VFR has been the only time Ive been asked to cancel IFR while completing practice approaches.

I have, however, been cleared for approaches when VFR, asked to cancel IFR (mistakenly) when VFR, told "no separation" when IFR, and every other combo you can think of. When that happens I promptly and professionally query the controller about my exact VFR/IFR status and get everyone on the same page.
 
I was doing a practice IFR cross country but flying VFR, I didn't file an IFR flight plan nor received an IFR clearance. I was flying VOR to VOR. When we got closer to our destination, Shafter-Minter (KMIT), we requested the full VOR-A approach. My students words were "request VOR-A in Shafter, full stop".

I am IFR current but, if someone who was earning their instrument rating or wasn't current this would be a issue.
 
wolf79 said:
I was doing a practice IFR cross country but flying VFR, I didn't file an IFR flight plan nor received an IFR clearance. I was flying VOR to VOR. When we got closer to our destination, Shafter-Minter (KMIT), we requested the full VOR-A approach. My students words were "request VOR-A in Shafter, full stop".

I am IFR current but, if someone who was earning their instrument rating or wasn't current this would be a issue.
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The words should have been "request a practice VOR-A via XYZ". If I call a controller, while VFR, and ask for an IFR approach without telling him I don't want to be IFR, he's going to give me an IFR clearance, and the approach requested.
 
subpilot said:
Did they ever give you an IFR clearance (cleared to XYZ via ...)? If not then you were not IFR.
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A clearance is required only if operating IFR in controlled airspace, so whether or not he received a clearance is not dispositive.
 
z987k said:
If I call a controller, while VFR, and ask for an IFR approach without telling him I don't want to be IFR, he's going to give me an IFR clearance, and the approach requested.
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By "IFR approach" do you mean requesting an ILS/LOC/GPS/VOR/NDB approach while VFR?

If so, a controller making you IFR prior to issuing an approach instruction (without you specifically requesting a pop up) is a bit odd. Matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet there is not one single controller in my building who would make a VFR aircraft IFR unless the pilot specifically requested a pop-up IFR, when coupled with a practice approach. We do it all day, every day:

VFR aircraft: Request vectors for the ILS into (airport).
Us: Roger, fly heading xxx, vectors for the ILS, maintain VFR.

Now, if a VFR aircraft called up and asked for "an IFR approach into (airport)" I'd take a few seconds to determine what, exactly, the pilot was asking for before proceeding. And that would include a very specific query as to if the pilot wanted a practice approach VFR or wanted an IFR clearance.

All that aside, I'm not sure why you would have to cancel after conducting a VFR practice approach. You're not IFR, so there's nothing to cancel. Different strokes for different folks on that one - or, maybe there was some confusion on the status (VFR/IFR) of the aircraft as they got handed from controller to controller. That, I have seen happen.
 
Pertinent items from the 7110.65U:

4-8-11 Practice Approaches

5. All VFR aircraft must be instructed to maintain VFR on initial contact or as soon as possible thereafter.

4−2−9. CLEARANCE ITEMS (note: this paragraph relates to 4-2-8 VFR to IFR and IFR to VFR flights)

The following guidelines must be utilized to facilitate the processing of airfile aircraft:
<snip>
c. Issue clearance to destination, short range clearance, or an instruction to the pilot to contact an FSS if the flight plan cannot be processed. If clearance is to destination airport, the phraseology CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT must be used.
 
TripSix said:
By "IFR approach" do you mean requesting an ILS/LOC/GPS/VOR/NDB approach while VFR?

If so, a controller making you IFR prior to issuing an approach instruction (without you specifically requesting a pop up) is a bit odd. Matter of fact, I'd be willing to bet there is not one single controller in my building who would make a VFR aircraft IFR unless the pilot specifically requested a pop-up IFR, when coupled with a practice approach. We do it all day, every day:

VFR aircraft: Request vectors for the ILS into (airport).
Us: Roger, fly heading xxx, vectors for the ILS, maintain VFR.

Now, if a VFR aircraft called up and asked for "an IFR approach into (airport)" I'd take a few seconds to determine what, exactly, the pilot was asking for before proceeding. And that would include a very specific query as to if the pilot wanted a practice approach VFR or wanted an IFR clearance.

All that aside, I'm not sure why you would have to cancel after conducting a VFR practice approach. You're not IFR, so there's nothing to cancel. Different strokes for different folks on that one - or, maybe there was some confusion on the status (VFR/IFR) of the aircraft as they got handed from controller to controller. That, I have seen happen.
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Maybe I'm that removed from training, but if I'm squawking 1200, call up approach or center and say, King Air 12345 30 to the south of XYZ, we'd like the GPS 36, he's going to come back with, cleared to XYZ via direct IAF maintain 3000 squawk 1234.
 
JetDrvr said:
A clearance is required only if operating IFR in controlled airspace, so whether or not he received a clearance is not dispositive.
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I had to look that one up.

z987k said:
Maybe I'm that removed from training, but if I'm squawking 1200, call up approach or center and say, King Air 12345 30 to the south of XYZ, we'd like the GPS 36, he's going to come back with, cleared to XYZ via direct IAF maintain 3000 squawk 1234.
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Yes.

He also might say "Cleared to Camarillo via radar vectors, maintain VFR until (fix), cleared RNAV-gee-whiz runway 26" - I got this a lot for my instrument training. Unless you say the words "practice approach," I am going to think that I'm receiving full IFR services, but I'm also likely to ask and clarify what I want. Or just go TEC and and enjoy all the non-practice IFR services I want.
 
I can help with this one I think. The Contoller mis-spoke but was sorta not wrong at the same time. At Airports that have a LOA with the FAA in regard to VFR aircraft conducting practice approaches at satellite airports (this is the OVERWHELMING majority of airports inside approach control airspace/CENTER airspace in the U.S.) the controller is required to provide IFR separation at the time the approach clearance becomes effective (the time he issued it: "cleared (ILS, RNAV, etc)). If you were doing a VFR practice approach, the controller should have stated "report cancellation", not "IFR" cancellation. BUT, was he providing IFR separation? Yes. At the time he said cleared ILS approach, you (being VFR) immediately were affored IFR separation until you either 1) cancel with the controller 2) cross the landing thresh hold/or point at which service is terminated 3) or are afforded IFR separation all the way through the missed approach IF requested ahead of time and approved by the controller. And, when the controller said you were IFR, He is also an idiot.
 
It's the new generation of controllers like the new generation of pilots. Everybody has gps and uses flight following as if they were ifr.
 
AIM 4-3-21 paragraph a.)

aim 4-3-21 said:
... Pilots not on IFR flight plans desiring practice instrument approaches should always state "practice" when making requests to ATC...
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