PPL Through a Local FBO?

[FD4life]

Quote:
Get 1200 hours and go work for Flight Express for about a year. Get paid to fly multi, it's great experience.


I agree with everyone else about getting the liscense at a local FBO. If you can, hang out at the airport before and after your lessons and get to know the local pilots, especially the old guys who've been flying a long time. Just hang out and talk with those guys, and you'll learn just as much as you will during your lessons. Correct my if i'm wrong, but don't you have to fly the 210 at Flight Express before you get enough senority to even start flying the baron? If so, Airnet is an excellent choice to fly for. They even have the SIC program for people with less than 135 mins.

 

[PDT565]

"Subpar product"??

Let's think about that. People who go to ATP finish with the same pieces of plastic (ratings) that anyone form an FBO gets. Unlike other employers, airlines don't ask, "where did you get your degree? Harvard or State College?". The FAA grants these ratings through merrit of your check ride. The examiner does not care where you went for your training. The standard is set by the FAA per the PTS, not by Mr. Meyers. ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important. Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.


The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly. ATP is for motivated people. I've seen students who used to "dig ditches" for a living succeed incredibly at ATP for the one reason that they were well motivated.

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

 

[meyers9163]

ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important.

Funny.... many of the locations teach what they know the examiner will test on and not even all of what the PTS requires. I got in trouble more then once for teaching too much and using too much time on issues. Funny thing is when I taught a student how to do a turn around a point I got, "Our DPE wont do that on the checkride for for future privates dont do that." Hmm Interesting. Well in order for me to sign her off for her checkride I must say I gave in training in that and if I didnt I will not sign her off. One of many issues I can point on. Point taken I rest assure.

Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.

Two parts here. What do you call Pete there in Daytona Beach? Last time I checked hes the manager of ATP in DAB. He also is a DPE. Wonder if he has any pressure to pass students. Also ATP states during Indoc if you have any issues with the DPE's let them know and they will, "take care of them." Simply saying you do it our way, in our plane and you will get students or you dont and you wont. Thus ATP has their examiners that will do it a certain way and know their "taining."
Secondly I had a student whom could not afford to take his last checkride. He requested to take his CSEL/CFI Single with the FSDO. The manager and Jim refused to let him do so. They told him either he does it with a DPE or no one at all. If you want to debate it I will give you his name and cell and you can call him yourself. Lastly the FSDO is ONLY used if the student is going for their initial and only then if the FSDO can fit it in to their schedules. Other then that they are all DPE's. Lastly the only two DPE's in my time I saw who were not pressured by ATP were Erinie and Walt. Both of whom have more respect with the FAA then ATP and thus if ATP were to try to screw either of them, they'd end up screwing themselves.

The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly.

You want to take on a psychology major and others on this forum who have neruoscience degrees (masters and doctorates) about how the brain works and how much is truely can process? I dont think I even want to waste my breath going there. Search on google cognitive psychology and also brain/behavior psychology and let me know what you learn about the brain and how much it truely can retain. There's a reason doctors and others dont get their degree in 90 days. Wild thought I know.

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

Actually by going to the FBO route I was able to get my degree. I am in a position with my furlough to indeed have a job that pays me 60k and it will be up to me if I want to go back. I have job security and it lined up. However just a little FYI about Jetcareers and mods please look into this. We are not a trashy website. To point out about somones furlough and job loss is a very trashy move. Really not a class act and I hope to see better out of you in the future. Furloughs in this career happen. There are pleanty of people who are getting let go who went to ATP. So that point is rather irrelevant and just shows your lack of class. In addition I have about 28k in debt. Thank god I dont have 80k just in flight loans and without a job as many are whom went to ATP and other programs. I'll take my route any day of the week. To each their own.

Lastly this industry has a funny way of being small. The brides you burn now will not be there later to help you cross the many obstacles you may face in this industry. Perhaps you are at PDT now and that's great. However things happen quick and rather rapid in this industry. I really would wish you nothing but the best with your future and if you are in 121 your job. However as great as things were at my company 6 months ago they turn quick. My company today, it could be yours tomorrow. With that I hope its not but its the way of the world. Just ask you to keep that in mind. Again hind sight in 20/20 and after you re read your own post perhaps you will see that some of your points, mostly the last paragraph was off centered and classless.

 

[MQAAord]

"Subpar product"??

Let's think about that. People who go to ATP finish with the same pieces of plastic (ratings) that anyone form an FBO gets. Unlike other employers, airlines don't ask, "where did you get your degree? Harvard or State College?". The FAA grants these ratings through merrit of your check ride. The examiner does not care where you went for your training. The standard is set by the FAA per the PTS, not by Mr. Meyers. ATP does an excellent job of teaching the student exactly what the FAA deems important. Lets remember that at ATP (part 61), there are no in house check rides. Like at Riddle, Phoenix East, Delta Connection. ATP's students are evaluated by DPE's or the FSDO.


The proof is in the end result; If you finish ATP in 90 days, and the FAA has signed off on your ratings, then you CAN in fact learn that quickly. ATP is for motivated people. I've seen students who used to "dig ditches" for a living succeed incredibly at ATP for the one reason that they were well motivated.

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

And by that same logic, FBO students finish with the same piece of plastic (paper, when I got mine) that a ATP student finishes with. So that doesn't make the ATP person any better than the FBO person. (or vice versa.....)

I know you're new here, but let's not make posts like that "personal" by telling someone they'd have the senority to not get furloughed if they'd done XYZ program..... You do NOT know that for sure, and it's not a fair or accurate thing to say.

Personally, I do not get into the FBO vs. Pilot Mill vs. Collegiate Aviation argument. I have an aviation degree (worthless for several reasons yet I'm still not regretful that I did it), I did my PPL at an FBO, but I did it in 4 weeks like a pilot mill......... Either way the individual gets the same rating as anyone else.

 

[DL31082]

Just for the record I went through ATP's indoc program to and yes they do say that if a DPE has a problem with one of the policies that ATP has then they will stop using them. They did not however say that if they are busting to many students that they would dump them. If a DPE breaks an ATP policy like killing the engine with the mixture below 3000ft agl then they will stop using the DPE. The 3 DPE's that we used in ATL were Cylde Shelton, Joey Sanders and Bob Howell. I gaurentee that they none of them have ever passed someone that did not deserve to be passed. ATP does not do things outside of the PTS which is the guide book for checkrides.

 

[meyers9163]

Just for the record I went through ATP's indoc program to and yes they do say that if a DPE has a problem with one of the policies that ATP has then they will stop using them. They did not however say that if they are busting to many students that they would dump them. If a DPE breaks an ATP policy like killing the engine with the mixture below 3000ft agl then they will stop using the DPE. The 3 DPE's that we used in ATL were Cylde Shelton, Joey Sanders and Bob Howell. I gaurentee that they none of them have ever passed someone that did not deserve to be passed. ATP does not do things outside of the PTS which is the guide book for checkrides.

You are right.... I havent known any of whom got fired. However they are informed the same way about things. Its all I was saying with that. However I cant look past the story I put about instructing a private and getting in trouble for teaching ground reference manuevers by the manager and jim because, "our DPE wont test her on those." That just blew my mind. Again on of many first hand experiences/stories I have. And I am sure each can say things happen like that everwhere, but when I got a manager and a VP telling me to go against the Regulations I was shocked.

 

[DE727UPS]

"Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough."

Pretty lame comment to make. There are so many factors outside everyones control that this comment is 100% accurate only after the fact.

In my opinion, furloughs or not, going through all those ratings in 90 days doesn't put out a competent pilot. There is more at stake here than a seniority number, in spite of what ATP marketing wants you to believe.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough.

What a DB thing to say.

 

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

I understand where you are coming from with the experience you have. But you have to taken into account that you can't stereotype all graduates of the ATP program.

Pilots are individuals and their understanding of concepts comes on an individual basis. Not every ATP graduate comes out with the same amount of knowlege, experience, or even attitude.

You are summing up everyone in the ATP program with a general statement. Believe it or not, some people are faster learners than others and will be competent pilots.

Can you show us any accident reports or records linked to ATP students to back up that they aren't competent pilots?

Facts are much better than opinions.

"Here's another example of why the 90 day program is a great choice over an FBO style program. If Mr. Meyers had gone with ATP in the begining instead of an FBO, he'd most likely have the seniority to keep his job when they furlough."

Pretty lame comment to make. There are so many factors outside everyones control that this comment is 100% accurate only after the fact.

In my opinion, furloughs or not, going through all those ratings in 90 days doesn't put out a competent pilot. There is more at stake here than a seniority number, in spite of what ATP marketing wants you to believe.

 

[PDT565]

Funny.... many of the locations teach what they know the examiner will test on and not even all of what the PTS requires. I got in trouble more then once for teaching too much and using too much time on issues. Funny thing is when I taught a student how to do a turn around a point I got, "Our DPE wont do that on the checkride for for future privates dont do that." Hmm Interesting. Well in order for me to sign her off for her checkride I must say I gave in training in that and if I didnt I will not sign her off. One of many issues I can point on. Point taken I rest assure.

Two parts here. What do you call Pete there in Daytona Beach? Last time I checked hes the manager of ATP in DAB. He also is a DPE. Wonder if he has any pressure to pass students.


You want to take on a psychology major and others on this forum who have neruoscience degrees (masters and doctorates) about how the brain works and how much is truely can process? I dont think I even want to waste my breath going there. Search on google cognitive psychology and also brain/behavior psychology and let me know what you learn about the brain and how much it truely can retain. There's a reason doctors and others dont get their degree in 90 days. Wild thought I know.


Actually by going to the FBO route I was able to get my degree. I am in a position with my furlough to indeed have a job that pays me 60k and it will be up to me if I want to go back. I have job security and it lined up. However just a little FYI about Jetcareers and mods please look into this. We are not a trashy website. To point out about somones furlough and job loss is a very trashy move. Really not a class act and I hope to see better out of you in the future. Furloughs in this career happen. There are pleanty of people who are getting let go who went to ATP. So that point is rather irrelevant and just shows your lack of class. In addition I have about 28k in debt. Thank god I dont have 80k just in flight loans and without a job as many are whom went to ATP and other programs. I'll take my route any day of the week. To each their own.

Lastly this industry has a funny way of being small. The brides you burn now will not be there later to help you cross the many obstacles you may face in this industry. Perhaps you are at PDT now and that's great. However things happen quick and rather rapid in this industry. I really would wish you nothing but the best with your future and if you are in 121 your job. However as great as things were at my company 6 months ago they turn quick. My company today, it could be yours tomorrow. With that I hope its not but its the way of the world. Just ask you to keep that in mind. Again hind sight in 20/20 and after you re read your own post perhaps you will see that some of your points, mostly the last paragraph was off centered and classless.

First, I personally witnessed concern by ATP admin over one of the former private instructors not teaching ground reff. So for you to say that Jim himself told you not to teach ground reff, I can only assume is a lie.


Also, I've seen Pete and other DPE's have no reservation about busting or double busting students who did not earn their rating. For you to speculate about someone else's motives is...well...just that, speculation. And no credit should be given to it. I've also witnessed other examiners refuse to do check rides or wait for a ruling from the FSDO because they took question with a students logbook. No examiner is pressured at ATP. At least in DAB, there are so many flight schools that if ATP DAB stopped using them, examiners would still be overbooked.


Yes, I do want to take on a psychology major. I was able to attend ATP after I had earned my BA and graduate degree. I really don't care what undergraduate degree you received. A BS in Psych does not make you an expert by any means. Maybe if you had a doctorate, worked as a professor, or were published, I'd take some stock in the scientific double blind research you've done involving ATP's program versus an FBO. But no, once again, its just speculation without supportive evidence. According to your logic it does not make sense that hundreds of former ATP instructors are now FO's and Captains at the airlines. Or that ATP graduates almost never wash out of airline training. Funny, I can't think of a single instructor from ATP who got the boot from training.


If you believe that jet careers is not a trashy website, then stop trashing ATP and the people who work there. The way you talk about ATP and then lecture someone else for the candor of their response does not make sense. If you really believed that ATP was sub standard, you should have left immediately. Instead you stuck around, used ATP to get all the multi time you needed, and generally creeped everyone out with your obsession over that female student you constantly talk about on here. Then turned around and trashed your former job. What a high moral code you live by.

 

[meyers9163]

How dare we speak of ATP is any disregards. You are right PDT565 and I should not dare disagree with you. Lastly about the ground reference manuevers. You can speak with Matt Mccallister there in DAB and Pete both. You can speak with them and let them also know who talked to you. In addition feel free to speak with Pete, Bob Raskey, Steve Clegg all about me. You will hear nothing but positives about my students and my training. Also why you are at it speak with Steve Clegg about ATP since you know so much about DAB and all. See what his true feelings are while you are at it. Also ask them about the few times they passed students who were about to take off with flaps still out in the seminole.... And tell me why a student who almost took off with flaps still full should have passed their checkride. Steve Clegg had to stop while on the runway once and remind the guy to get his flaps up before he took off, oh and this was during his CMEL. But they have high standards, all of them.

To each their own. Apparenly you have no regards to our website and community here. We are allowed to disagree and lay points out to people as to why we disagree. I've never said once I disagree and fail to provide reasons for them. You can take them as you wish and do with them as you wish. However I know I've saved a lot of money, got where I want to be, and am perfectly happy with how I got there.

Lastly you are right, I used atp simply to get my multi time and get out. I had no intentions of sticking around after I got my 100ME and was planning on either getting a job with a 121 carrier or going back to the FBO which would only allow me to instruct once I got 75 hours. So in that regards you are right, I used them and left. Had no intentions of sticking around nor should I have. The pay sucked, the working conditions sucked, the management in my oppinion sucked and I was getting out regardless. But again to each their own.

Again you are right about everything. I only have a BS in Psychology and worked with Brain based professors the past four years and know nothing. Was accepted by many graduate programs to get my MA/Psyd etc. But I wont waste my time.

Friendly word of advice. No one here knows you. You might want to go into the member section and give a hello this is me rant. In addition be willing to listen. We are never always right about issues. No one here claims to be. However the approach you have taken so far on this website is off centered and should be changed. You will recieve a lot more help and advice in the future in regards on issues. However you can use this website as you wish and I'm not telling you how to. But many on this website have jobs today because of others. Many are in positions they never would have been because of others on here. So the bridges you burn on here today, very well could be the bridges you might have needed later on. Its a small world out there and when you make it out there you will see what I'm talking about. I wish you nothing but the best of luck and you are entitled to your thoughts about ATP. As I am to mine. I will argue all day until you and I are both blue in the face. However I will only speak of experiences and what I viewed down at ATP. You are able to speak of yours. I will not call you a LIAR and snoop to such levels. You want to know why? Because those are your experiences and only YOU know how they unfolded. I will leave it with a few final thoughts.

Feel free to share your experiences with people about ATP. Feel free to step in and speak your mind when things are being said and you disagree. However in the end you have to remember for every good story about an FBO/Fast paced academy/Major airline/regional airline there is always going to be a bad and horror story. To each their own. Take it with a grain of salt and move on. Again I will never call you a liar for your experiences with certain things, thus you might want to think twice before you call somone else a liar about theirs.

 

[DL31082]

Ok I'm going to ignore the last to rants and get back to the original thread somewhat. Meyers if you manager and Jim told you that you shouldn't be training ground ref maneuvers then you are right that is wrong. That does not make all ATP students "sub-par products". If it does then I guess that I am one of those "sub-par" pilots that are now littering the sky because ATP is pumping them out. The fact is that there are two types of pilots that come out of ATP. 1.) The person that studies his/her butt off because they really want to excellence and 2.) The person who wants to get their ratings the easiest way possible. Neither one of these has to do with ATP. If you got the same two people at an FBO you would probably come out with the same type of pilot regardless. FBO's and places like ATP are places and programs, the level of professionalism and drive is what makes some a good or bad student.

 

[PDT565]

By all means, feel free to stoop. When you lie about how things happened that makes you a, "liar". If I'm being misleading about anything I say, please let me know. Without using names, I watched as ATP admin and the DAB managers sat the hearing-impaired (you know who I'm talking about) private instructor down and told him in no uncertain terms that he needs to be teaching ground reff.

If the examiners are pressured, why do they bust people all the time? One of them busted me on a check ride and I'll be the first to admit that I deserved it. If what you claim is correct, that they are under pressure, ATP would have a 100% pass rate. That's just not the case. The volume of training in central FL is so enormous that the examiners don't have an interest in doing check rides at one particular school. ATP alone does not keep guys like Bob and Steve in business.

You also never addressed my statement. If ATP is such a sub standard program, and people really don't get the training they need; Why are there hundreds of ATP graduates at the airlines now? Why has every ATP instructor I know passed new hire training and IOE? Why was I able to pass a sim ride at my interview? Why did I have no problem in training? Its not because my brain works any differently than someone else's.

When you look at the success ATP has had placing people in flying jobs, your claims just don't add up. If it were not possible to get the right training in 90 days, either ATP would have gone under, or the FAA would have shut it down years ago. The statistics don't lie.

The airlines have people much brighter than you and I who determine hiring criteria. Seems strange that they didn't come to the same psychological conclusion that you did??? Huh, why do you think they hire so many people who have "Alpha Tango" pouring out of their log books?

 

[yoman793]

:nana2:anic::bandit::rawk::hiya: :laff:

thought i would try to lighten up this thread a little bit. take it easy ya'll... take it easy.

 

[SatelliteBeachPilot]

I'll add something. Bob Raskey does not need the money and does not need ATP. He does it because he enjoys doing it, though you might think he doesn't.

Since I have been at ATP Daytona, a little over a month now, I have witnessed at least 7 check ride busts. Multi Engine, Instrument, CFI, they have all had bust so to say that they just pass people is incorrect.

One of our fellow students was asked to leave ATP after he busted his instrument the 2nd time as well just over a week ago.

Meyers, you obviously have a personal vendetta out for ATP. Also, please don't preach about "burning bridges" on here as well, you have obviously done a good job of using jet careers to do that.

 

[MQAAord]

[modhat]Simmer down the emotion here people. Logic, facts and objectivity do more to "win" people to your opinion FAR better than rants and personal jabs. You will NOT make every other person on this website (or in the world for that matter) change their opinion to yours. Say your peace, support with facts, and understand that there are people out there who's minds you won't change.[/modhat]

 

[Kleigh]

I love the spirited discussion. I also like the fact that if someone has colored the facts in their favor other people can call them out. It is healthy to do so, or this sight just becomes a place to spread gossip and inaccuracies. I do know for a FACT that the chief pilot for ATP called the DAB location to demand they teach ground ref, regardless of the DPE's propensity to teach it.

Paul- I rarely agree with you on your opinion of the training one can get at ATP, but I truly feel awful you were furloughed. I hope it is short lived. Good Luck.

 

[meyers9163]

Meyers, you obviously have a personal vendetta out for ATP. Also, please don't preach about "burning bridges" on here as well, you have obviously done a good job of using jet careers to do that.

Dont know what you mean by this.... just keeps me rolling my eyes... AND feel free to tell Bob I said hello. Wait I'll just give him a call myself. In addition feel free to tell Pete I said hello. Ask him about me. I left nothing but great things to say about those two. Pete and I still talk and just spoke with him a week ago about issues, non atp related. Good friend and guy in general.

Again I have thoughts about ATP. I will recommend certain programs at ATP like I've done in the past and will do so in the future. However there are certain programs that ATP has I will not recommend. I have not changed my stance on that over the years. In addition there are very FEW students who I will recommend the 90 day program to but I have done that in the past. However times have changed right now in the industry. We all choose certain paths for a reason. however my goal is to help each individual whom I speak with and wants to find a career in aviation is to help them find the right path for them. That's all. And the fact is ATP isnt for everyone. Simple as that and it has nothing to do with the pace of the program. Rather where people are in their life, financial situation, career etc. Many more factors that I look at.

 

[meyers9163]

I do know for a FACT that the chief pilot for ATP called the DAB location to demand they teach ground ref, regardless of the DPE's propensity to teach it.

Glad to hear they finally did this. Again this was my experience at ATP and only one location. However its what I experienced. Glad they addressed that since I've left.

Paul- I rarely agree with you on your opinion of the training one can get at ATP, but I truly feel awful you were furloughed. I hope it is short lived. Good Luck.

Hey I'm looking forward to the time off. I appreciate the wishes and with any luck it will be short lived, if not its part of the game and I will move forward. To be honest if it wasnt for the route I took I'd have not been in the position I am in anyways. I'd be still instructing etc. Funny thing is how that was pointed out. So I just want to hit on that topic. if I would have waited and gone to ATP I'd have done it after I graduated. Which would have been summer of 2007. Thus I'd have started around August 2007. With that you figure 90 days. I'd have been done around end of October. Thus I'd have been starting to instruct around the time I was in my 121 ground school. For me it actually worked out best that I did the FBO route or I'd be still instructing because we all know how hiring went after the turn of the year.

 

[meyers9163]

:nana2:anic::bandit::rawk::hiya: :laff:

thought i would try to lighten up this thread a little bit. take it easy ya'll... take it easy.

It was worth shot! You know how it goes around here though when people have to disagree with others about things when it comes to ATP. Its always a a crazy time. Almost as crazy as the Brett Favre situation thing last week.

PDT565 sorry bud but you'll just have to agree to disagree with me on topics. I'm not wasting my time on those questions through this thread. Its about getting your PPL through the local FBO and feel free to get it back on topic about that. With that I will say once again its about getting a strong foundation. And I believe that one gets a better foundation through an FBO and taking their time working on their private. Everything you learn from your IRA-MEI builds on your basic skills. Thus its important to get those skills and define them as best as you can. Thus it takes time and I believe you build a stronger foundation at an FBO.