Power Off 180 Degree Landings In An Arrow IV

Dazzler

Dazzler

Well-Known Member
To Sarah (sbe) and others who have done their Commercial in an Arrow IV...

How did you perform your 180 degree power off accuracy landings? When did you drop the gear/flaps?

Because the aircraft drops like a rock, did you always just turn immediately towards the runway abeam the touchdown point?

Thanks!
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Personally, I turn immediately for the modified base leg. No, flaps, no gear. As soon as I'm established on my base leg(if I have no headwind component), I add one notch of flaps. If I have a tailwind on base, I'll add those flaps before I'm competely established on base.

Just as I'm turning final, i'll extend the landing gear. Remember, it's gonna take the gear a while to extend, so don't wait too long.

At this point, you can tell if you're going to need any more flaps. Sometimes you need them as speedbrakes, but often you won't need them at all!!!
 
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To Sarah (sbe) and others who have done their Commercial in an Arrow IV...

How did you perform your 180 degree power off accuracy landings? When did you drop the gear/flaps?

Because the aircraft drops like a rock, did you always just turn immediately towards the runway abeam the touchdown point?

Thanks!
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I did my commercial in an Arrow, and we were required to have the gear down on downwind, which I didn't mind. After cutting the power on the second stripe, I would pitch to 79, wait a couple seconds (depending on the wind) then start my turn. Doing this gave me anywhere from a 1/4 to 1/2 mile final.

I never really had trouble with these, but just practice them and they will be really easy. Like Lloyd said, just judge when to use the flaps and practice, and they should be no problem.
 
Dazzler - I almost busted my CSEL checkride on this. I was taught to fly the manuever exactly as Lloyd described it. I saved the gear for a bit later and used it as a tool to make my spot, and I was really getting it down pat. However, on my checkride the examiner wanted the gear down before the maneuver even started, and that threw me off. As you can imagine I ended up low. He thankfully gave me a 2nd chance (I made the runway the 1st time, but would not have made the touchdown zone markers which he specified), and that time I turned base immediately, added one notch of flaps a short while later, two while turning final then shortly thereafter three and prop forward, a brief slip and all was well. Someone mentioned this in my checkride thread and I'll agree - doing it from a right hand pattern somehow was easier for me. The airport we did the landing work at has a right pattern for 36 and left for 18.

In any event, best to be high (fixable, you can always add a slip if need be) than too low (SOL
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) so save your flaps and prop until you know you are going to need them!

I didn't do this maneuver much in the Arrow IV - most of my practice was after I'd already made the switch over to the Arrow II.
 
i did commercial in an arrow III this summer and i'm currently flying it from the right seat prepping to take the CFI-A ride. like these guys said, each time you do this maneuver it's going to be a little different. my habit is putting the gear down on midfield downwind, so for me the gear is already down. when i pitch for 79, i make it an abrupt movement and i usually gain about 100-200 feet after this little "bubble" i then trim for 79 and make a turn straight for the runway. usually this will leave me on a pretty good dogleg final and i can usually nail the point by using either 0 flaps or 10* at the most if i need to stretch the glide a little bit. i'd rather err on the high side and have to dump in 25* or 40* flaps or use a little slip than be low and have to go-around.

edit - forgot to mention that it seems to make a bit of difference if you wait till final to advance the prop from 2500 (or wherever it's set) to full forward. in a real emergency i'd bring it all the way back to get it as close to "feather" (yes, i know it doesn't actually feather) as possible and reduce some drag that way. besides, if you wait, and again, err on the high side, you can push it up early to try and coax the plane down.
 
I do a power off 180 a little different. I put the gear down abeam the tower, and go ahead and cut the throttle abeam the point you pick... then I still keep flying the downwind leg, probably for about 6 seconds. Then, fly a nice base leg, and you'll be able to start judging if you're going to be high or low. If you're going to be high, I actually prefer to use a little of a forward slip (recall, I still don't have any flaps in) to get down to a nicer altitude. The reason I save the flaps is that you're going to be short of your point-- you can use them in ground effect to extend your flight about 250 feet. If you're going to be short... get in ground effect, then, one notch at a time, start putting your flaps in (you'll start ballooning... but it works pretty slick)... you may need 25 degrees, or you may need 40... that's why I put them in one at a time. This method usually get's me within 50 feet beyond my point.

Overall though, find a method that works for you. Just practice whatever method you choose!
 
Another tip is to use the prop to help you. Increase the pitch, so you have less drag, then if you are high you can decrease the pitch to use the drag to increase your descent, just remember to bring it full on short final for a possible goaround since this is a simulated engine out, and not a real engine out emergency.

The way I set it up is to keep my point at the same level as it makes its way around the windows. When I am abeam the point, cut the power, drop the gear, and increase the pitch on the prop, and turn towards the runway. Pitch for best glide and use the flaps if the plane's path starts to drift above the desired aiming point. Be careful not to put the flaps in too early as the drag could cause you to come up short. Remember it is better to be a little high, because you can always use a slip to lose some of the altitude as need be, but you cannot get altitude back.
 
ditto gomntwins' tip of using flaps to balloon a bit if you find yourself coming up short of your point as you enter the flare - my CFI taught me that trick and it's quite handy!
 
If you do decide to use this method of using flaps in ground effect to extend, start practicing this with your point being the touchdown markers! It takes a little practice to get the hang of it (not a whole lot, but a few times around), and I sure don't want you landing short of the runway! Same thing goes for the checkride-- the examiner I had let me pick my point-- it was a no brainer, I picked the touchdown markers.
 
I did mine in an Arrow II. So numbers were MPH instead of knots. I assume the 79 everyone seems to be saying here is knots?

Anyhow, I'd go for about 90MPH right away, as the turn was started (power always seems to fail right abeam the point when an examiner is on board). Gear was of course already down, as it should be when you are already in a pattern.

Flaps are determined about 1/2 through the base leg, depending on height and wind conditions and how that changes position at that point.

After getting the speeds correct, I could get the Arrow set so that all 3 settings of flaps are brought in before the flare, and usually shortly before, or right after the turn onto final.

Practice a few, at higher than TPA first. At my home airport, there are trees right under where this shortened pattern goes, and that gets a little interesting if coming in low on practice the first few times
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Basically stay tight, if you seem to be dropping too fast on base then turn in early. If you think you are high on final then things are looking good. I applied no flap until I was on final and sure of making the touchdown point (if I needed to get rid of altitude). I actually found the Arrow easier to fly this manoeuvre than the 172 that I originally planned to take this phase of the checkride in. The fact that the Arrow does not float a whole lot made judging the approach and flare a lot easier.
 
We have an Arrow IV where I instruct and I have taught several com students in it. IMO the T tail does make it drop a bit faster than a regular Arrow, but as mentioned earlier not as fast as Bonanzas or Comanches. (Planes you don't normally use for training anyway, but I've done the 180 in those just to see how they did.)

With gear down and power out abeam the touchdown point (1000 ft agl) on a light wind day, I find that usually a few seconds is needed before you turn in. (2 to 4 maybe)
Normally you should have plenty of altitude left to make it work, I have found that the first 10 degrees of flaps helps extend things just a bit if needed. (The rest of the flaps when you know the runway and touchdown point are made.) Just practice and you should get it down in short order.
 
How do you measure 200 feet on the runway? Is it two white stripes, or a white stripe and a "gap", or what?
 
I think its from the beginning on one white stripe to the beginning of the next....same thing as a white stripe and a gap.
 
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I think its from the beginning on one white stripe to the beginning of the next....same thing as a white stripe and a gap.

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So each "stripe" and each "gap" are 100 feet? (Sorry my brain isn't working today)
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Yup, that is a good thread. Shows me working through trying to figure out this same thing. Speed really matters as to what feels right. I slowed down 10MPH or so over what you would expect is ldmax, and it got easy. Once you find best glide with gear down, you are golden. Practice a few up at 1500 or 2000 AGL next to a road or something, and do it with gear/flaps up, and down, and watch your altitude when you turn onto that simulated final.
 
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