Post Checkride Partial Panel

DrBenny

DrBenny

New Member
I am nearing the IR checkride. A thought occured to me: We practice partial panel enough to safely execute a nonprecision approach to minimums. However, the files of the NTSB are replete with accident reports resulting from partial panel. Just curious as to how often you practice partial panel?

Also, we are forming a C182 club, and might be purchasing a new, glass-panel model. Partial panel is pretty easy there. What would you do in this instance?
 
To be honest, I don't do it that much. When I was instructing, I had to do it all the time with students, and after awhile you get pretty good at compass turns! Partial panel training is somewhat unrealistic, since most people don't seem to crash after they realize what the problem is. The real danger is right after the failure when the pilot is not really sure what is going on, which instruments to trust. For this reason, I think training in a FTD is very valuable. When your CFI covers up the Attitude and Heading indicators, it is obvious what is going on. Even if you screw up an approach, you could probably go missed and try again. The real killer is the confusion right after the failure.

If you get your own aircraft I would advise you to install an electric DG or HSI. If it is a single, I would switch to one of the older wet vacuum pumps as well. The company selling the M-20 air/oil seperator sells rebuilt ones, and Airwolf is now making current production pumps. I would rather have an oily underbelly than a failed pump in IMC.

Some of the newer singles have dual pumps just like a twin. They just use the extra accessory pad on the back of the engine to mount an extra pump. I believe the newer 172/182's have this.

The reason I advocate switching to an electric DG/HSI is because it is much easier to immediately notice what is going on if only the AI has failed. Also, once things are sorted out, it is much easier to fly the airplane. Not having an AI is not really that big of a deal in a piston airplane.

AOPA did a little study not long ago that dealt with this. They used a FTD and could simulate a vacuum failure. Pilots with an electric DG/HSI noticed the problem the fastest. It was even better than when the pilots lost both the AI and the DG, but had a backup electric AI on the pannel.

The new panel 182 solves alot of the dilema when dealing with a 'gyro' failure. If the AHRS goes south in a glass cockpit you usually get a written warning in nice red letters and the display goes blank. If only the display fails in the Garmin system, I think you can go into a reversionary mode on the remaining screen and get your instruments back.

If you have a complete electrical failure, you should still have a backup AI, along with the traditional airspeed and altimeter. Navigation and communications could be somewhat of a problem, so you might want to get a handheld GPS and Com radio. Just make sure you replace the batteries now and then.

I have heard that even in the new panel 182, there is still the old style gyros whirring away behind the panel to drive the autopilot, although the actual display screens use a separate solid state 'black box'. Something about how the autopilot and the Garmin AHRS box not being compatible. If this is true, I am not sure what powers the gyros for the autopilot. Garmin is coming out with their own autopilot, and this will eventually not be an issue.

The 182 is not much to look at, but they are a very solid choice. They are reasonably fast and you can actually fill the tanks and the seats. It would be a good first airplane.
 
First of all, thanks for the detailed response. All of what you said about vacuum failure reinforces what I believe and what my CFI-IA has been drilling into my skull. He does own an FTD, and has taught me how to recognize the insidious onset of vacuum failure.
[ QUOTE ]
The new panel 182 solves alot of the dilema when dealing with a 'gyro' failure. If the AHRS goes south in a glass cockpit you usually get a written warning in nice red letters and the display goes blank. If only the display fails in the Garmin system, I think you can go into a reversionary mode on the remaining screen and get your instruments back.


[/ QUOTE ] That is my understanding, and is one of the many reasons driving the push for purchasing the C182T with NAVIII glass. I am finally mastering old school, but it would be nice to have every tool available for after getting the rating.
[ QUOTE ]
If you have a complete electrical failure, you should still have a backup AI, along with the traditional airspeed and altimeter. Navigation and communications could be somewhat of a problem, so you might want to get a handheld GPS and Com radio. Just make sure you replace the batteries now and then.


[/ QUOTE ] Also, a complete electrical failure in the C182T is not likely because I think there are two batteries. (Anyone know for sure?)
[ QUOTE ]
I have heard that even in the new panel 182, there is still the old style gyros whirring away behind the panel to drive the autopilot, although the actual display screens use a separate solid state 'black box'. Something about how the autopilot and the Garmin AHRS box not being compatible. If this is true, I am not sure what powers the gyros for the autopilot. Garmin is coming out with their own autopilot, and this will eventually not be an issue.


[/ QUOTE ] OK, I need to look into that. I can verify that Garmin is working on their own autopilot. I'm sure that will be a plus.
[ QUOTE ]
The 182 is not much to look at, but they are a very solid choice. They are reasonably fast and you can actually fill the tanks and the seats. It would be a good first airplane.

[/ QUOTE ] Some say they are popular because they can do everything at least passably well. Good room, good payload, OK speed for a fixed-gear single, etc. We really can't get any fancier than a 'Lane because we don't want there to be a big burden on very low-time pilots who want to get a checkout in the bird.

I sometimes have the pleasure of flying one of of the nicest Saratogas around--a like-new 1988 HP with all of the latest goodies. She is a wonder to fly and very stable, but she costs a pretty penny to rent (more than a lot of twins), and all of those goodies really eat away at the payload.
 
It is my understanding that to certify the new all electric aircraft, the FAA is requiring 2 alternators and 2 batteries, each running its own 'separate' system that is usually only connected with a bus tie circuit breaker. Cirrus is using a small gear driven alternator that mounts on the back of the engine like a vacuum pump in addition to the traditional belt driven one on the front of the engine. I am not sure what Cessna is doing.

I keep hearing that the electric stuff is more reliable. I agree that the dry pumps are not much to get excited about, but worry somewhat about the course some of the new aircraft are taking. In the newer jets, they have an avionics rack that looks like a computer case. A bunch of cards are plugged in, hooking them to the equivalent of a computer network. The box controls everything! From the nosewheel steering to FADEC and the FMS, everything is in there. There are 2 separate boxes, but it does not make me feel good. In the old airplanes you could have a total electrical failure and the airplanes would still fly. No longer will that be the case.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am nearing the IR checkride. A thought occured to me: We practice partial panel enough to safely execute a nonprecision approach to minimums. However, the files of the NTSB are replete with accident reports resulting from partial panel. Just curious as to how often you practice partial panel?


[/ QUOTE ]

I have access to a FTD at no charge, so needless to say, I practice frequently. I try and get some partial panel flying in at least once every three months... but if I'm planning a cross-country that could involve some actual, I make it a point to go in within a week before. Doing this also keeps me fresh on my multi-engine flying (it's set up like a Baron), so it's good all around. I can't afford to rent a multi at the moment... but this way I won't forget what I've learned! Also, there's nothing like shooting a partial panel VOR approach with one engine feathered, and a radio failure. Realisitically I'll never be in a situation like that, but it does keep you on your toes and helps keep you fresh on dealing with a high workload.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Also, there's nothing like shooting a partial panel VOR approach with one engine feathered, and a radio failure. Realisitically I'll never be in a situation like that, but it does keep you on your toes and helps keep you fresh on dealing with a high workload.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or you could just look at it like I look at it... the more stuff that's broke, the less stuff you gotta worry about /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif.
 
[ QUOTE ]

From the nosewheel steering to FADEC and the FMS, everything is in there. There are 2 separate boxes, but it does not make me feel good. In the old airplanes you could have a total electrical failure and the airplanes would still fly. No longer will that be the case.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't like that. Luckily, the 182 is a relatively simple airplane regardless of whatever glitzy avionics you put into it. It isn't fly by wire; at least not yet!
 
I have a similar attitude.

[ QUOTE ]

I have access to a FTD at no charge, so needless to say, I practice frequently. I try and get some partial panel flying in at least once every three months... but if I'm planning a cross-country that could involve some actual, I make it a point to go in within a week before. Doing this also keeps me fresh on my multi-engine flying (it's set up like a Baron), so it's good all around. I can't afford to rent a multi at the moment... but this way I won't forget what I've learned! Also, there's nothing like shooting a partial panel VOR approach with one engine feathered, and a radio failure. Realisitically I'll never be in a situation like that, but it does keep you on your toes and helps keep you fresh on dealing with a high workload.

[/ QUOTE ]
 
Really? Thanks a lot /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif... should have more on the way soon enough.
 
I teach in a Garmin 1000 equipped DA40, and there is a rate gyro for the autopilot. The DA40 does not have dual electrical system, but it does have a backup battery that will run the standby electric attitude indicator and the instrument panel floodlight in the event of a total electrical failure. If you have an alternator failure in the plane. The procedures call for you to turn on the essential bus which will give you the PFD, AHRS, Air Data Computer, one GPS, and One NAV/COM for 45 minutes. This would allow you to have 45 minutes of electrical power to fly an approach, and then another 90 minutes to find VMC after that. One thing that we stress in our glass panel transition course is an understanding of electrical load shedding in an emergency in an all electric airplane. It is also correct about the revisionary mode in the event of a display failure. In this mode, you will have your engine instruments along the side of your PFD instrumentation. In this mode you will not have any of the MFD functions or the PFD inset map, but all COM, NAV, and GPS functions will continue to operate normally.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The procedures call for you to turn on the essential bus which will give you the PFD, AHRS, Air Data Computer, one GPS, and One NAV/COM for 45 minutes. This would allow you to have 45 minutes of electrical power to fly an approach, and then another 90 minutes to find VMC after that.

[/ QUOTE ]


I am not sure about the DA40, but one thing a senior instructor stresses here is that those numbers you see are based of a perfect battery (at least in the warrior, arrow, seminole).

The Warrior battery is 35 amps and will only offer that on a perfect day when it is brand new. As you know, the battery puts out less amps when cold and it gets really cold here.

At 0 degrees Fahrenheit, the Warrior battery puts out around 10 amps. After an alternator failure in the winter, the pilot might have around 10-15 minutes of battery life (which sucks), it just depends. There is no hard answer but you should change your game plan with an older battery and when flying in colder weather.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I am not sure about the DA40, but one thing a senior instructor stresses here is that those numbers you see are based of a perfect battery (at least in the warrior, arrow, seminole).

[/ QUOTE ]

You are absolutly correct. I was just giving the quick book numbers answer to inform what there is in the way of what happens in the case of a electrical failure. There are many other factors that would come into play in an actual power loss situation. Not the least of which is the pilot recognizing it in time. That is made easier with the system warnings on the Garmin 1000, but is still something that could be a problem.
 
Wanted to share this NTSB case with everyone, read the whole thing, it is a good one and very sad.

Here is an excerpt from it:

"The battery is 28 volts and is rated at 480-amp minutes. There is no requirement for the battery to power the electrical system for a minimum time period after the loss of the alternator. If electrical demands on the battery continue, the battery's electrical charge will be depleted as the electrical components dim/weaken and ultimately cease to function. The aircraft manufacturer stated that the alternator annunciator light is designed to illuminate at 24.5 volts. He also stated that at 24.5 volts the electrical output to the autopilot is already below that required for full function. The length of the battery's useful charge depends on factors such as the age and/or condition of the battery as well as the overall demands being placed on it. The aircraft manufacturer's stated that this could vary from about 30 minutes to less than 2 minutes."

Here is the rest
 
[ QUOTE ]
Very sad. Makes me second guess flying in IMC at all!

[/ QUOTE ]

No need to second guess. When your number's up, your number's up. It could just as easily happen driving to McDonalds, as it could flying IMC; so why second guess anything?

Remember the old cliche.....worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere.
 
[ QUOTE ]

Remember the old cliche.....worry is like a rocking chair, it gives you something to do but gets you nowhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've never heard that one, but it really rings true.

Thanks.
 
[ QUOTE ]
No need to second guess. When your number's up, your number's up. It could just as easily happen driving to McDonalds, as it could flying IMC; so why second guess anything?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I say about flying single engine IFR....but alot of folks just won't do it!
 
[ QUOTE ]

Also, we are forming a C182 club, and might be purchasing a new, glass-panel model. Partial panel is pretty easy there. What would you do in this instance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ctrl+Alt+Delete /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Also, we are forming a C182 club, and might be purchasing a new, glass-panel model. Partial panel is pretty easy there. What would you do in this instance?

[/ QUOTE ]

Ctrl+Alt+Delete /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top