Position and Hold no more?
- Thread starter Champcar
- Start date
Timbuff10
Well-Known Member
I have heard this too, though not from anyone official... I have always thought it was weird just letting yourself out to more exposure to be sitting on a runway and not using it. Either takeoff, or hold short so you are not a factor, but don't just sit on a runway with your back facing thousands of pounds of metal and fuel coming at you at a hundred miles an hour. Then again, maybe it is still clear since I turned my back on final?
TheFlyingTurkey
Fetus Worshiper
Position and hold comes in very handy at large busy airports. While one airplane is slowing on the runway after landing, you can position another airplane on the runway for takeoff, and another airplane is on a 3 mile final for landing. If we lost "position and hold" you would have to increase the distance between aircraft on final to get departures out. This would slow things down quite a bit a busy airports.
BoilerPilot2007
Well-Known Member
Weren't controllers going to stop using position and hold to intentionally create delays - in response to salary concerns?
I don't think the FAA believes there's a safety issue overall.
I don't think the FAA believes there's a safety issue overall.
Champcar
Well-Known Member
Heres the only article I could dig up on it. http://www.avweb.com/newswire/12_10a/briefs/191713-1.html
Here are the Controllers complaining
http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2006/03/new_faa_require.html
Here are the Controllers complaining
http://themainbang.typepad.com/blog/2006/03/new_faa_require.html
TheFlyingTurkey said:
Agreed! Take away posit. and hold operations at airports like LGA, DCA, MSP (to name just a few) and your hosed - there will be delays like never before. Just like everything else - position and hold is not dangerous if everyone is paying attention.
Jason
hattrick
Well-Known Member
as far as i know that is correct. the faa has taken tiph away except for certain airports where it is approved. for example here in fai they still use position and hold on one runway but not the other. so i think each airport must have a reason and get approved before they can use it.
disclaimer: i cant figure out where i got that info so it could be wrong
disclaimer: i cant figure out where i got that info so it could be wrong
AlexF
Well-Known Member
I think the FAA wants to rid the position and hold operation. I know about 4 months ago, a letter was sent to all the FBO's etc at my airport (KTOA) explaining that the position and hold procedure will no longer be used. It cited reasons as safety and the FAA. However many airports obviously still continue this. I'll see if I can get ahold of the letter and post it.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
It's official. Apparently, it has to do with staffing levels in the tower. Apparently, even KBNA is going to stop doing it.
Weird.
Weird.
FlyOrDie
New Member
Without position and hold it would be nearly impossible to get out of airports like SAN during rush hour. This summer it took 15 minutes to get out of there and the only reason we finally left is because the controller gave us a position and hold with the requirement to be ready for departure or taxiing clear of the runway. At that airport they do not have the luxury of multiple runways to use for arrivals and departures. I think this issue is just going to create chaos in the system for awhile and then it'll go back to the way it was.
NuevaLuna
New Member
FAA waives new takeoff safety rule
Busiest airports get temporary exemption
By Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune transportation reporter
Published March 8, 2006
The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday eased up on imminent plans to impose revised airport procedures aimed at reducing the risk of an arriving airplane flying over or landing on top of another plane waiting on a runway to depart.
The changes, which the National Transportation Safety Board had recommended to the FAA over the past six years, were announced last week and had been scheduled to begin March 20, at the peak of the spring-break travel period.
The proposed tightening of rules governing how planes line up at airports for takeoff would appear to help prevent a rare type of accident that could cause hundreds of deaths in a single collision.
The FAA's notice to airport air-traffic control towers last week said mistakes are continuing to occur involving planes taxiing onto an active runway when an approaching plane is about to land on the same runway or an intersecting runway.
On Feb. 17, a controller at Los Angeles International Airport directed three aircraft to use the same runway, the FAA said. A departing SkyWest turboprop was cleared to use a runway on which a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 was about to land. The controller also cleared an Air Canada jet to cross the other end of the same runway.
Other incidents have occurred in recent years in Salt Lake City, Ft. Lauderdale and at Midway Airport in Chicago, officials said.
But the FAA, reacting to related safety issues and concerns about flight delays ballooning, told the airlines, the air-traffic controllers and pilots unions on Tuesday that it would grant at least temporary waivers from the new rules, starting with the nation's 35 busiest airports.
The FAA won't force airports to change their takeoff procedures, "but by March 20 airport towers will have to explain to us why they want to continue using it," said Russell Chew, the FAA's chief operating officer.
As a result, no immediate changes are expected at O'Hare International Airport, Midway or Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee, officials said. But several hundred medium-size and smaller airports could lose an air-traffic tool they have used to keep flights bound for larger airports on schedule.
The controllers union said the FAA's planned change would add to congestion at already crowded airports, reducing the number of planes able to arrive and depart each hour by as much as 20 percent.
Under existing rules, a plane that is No. 2 in line for departure may taxi onto the runway and stop as soon as the plane in front starts its takeoff roll. Once the first plane is airborne and at least 6,000 feet down the runway, the second plane begins its takeoff roll and the next plane in line on the taxiway moves into takeoff position on the runway.
Air-traffic controllers call the procedure "locked and loaded," because it facilitates launching planes at tight intervals and keeps airports running efficiently.
Under the revisions the FAA was set to impose, planes in the No. 2 departure position would not be permitted to begin taxiing onto the runway until after the plane taking off in front was airborne.
The controllers union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, contends the FAA overreacted to a small number of high-profile cases in which human error caused arriving and departing planes to get perilously close to each other.
Controllers said the FAA's fix could unintentionally intensify risks on runways used for landings and takeoffs. Such a scenario would involve a controller directing a plane waiting on a taxiway to proceed to the runway for takeoff while an approaching plane was still 5 miles from touching down. A miscommunication between controller and pilot, or a delay in the plane entering the runway, could lead to a close call between the arriving and departing planes, potentially even a fly-over incident that could lead to a crash.
"You almost must already have the pilot on the runway in position so he is ready to roll when you tell him to," said Doug Fralick, director of safety and technology at the controllers union. "If the plane is still sitting on the taxiway, you lose your predictability because it takes time for the engines to spool up power and the plane to get into position."
----------
jhilkevitch@tribune.com
Copyright © 2006, Chicago Tribune
Busiest airports get temporary exemption
By Jon Hilkevitch
Tribune transportation reporter
Published March 8, 2006
The Federal Aviation Administration on Tuesday eased up on imminent plans to impose revised airport procedures aimed at reducing the risk of an arriving airplane flying over or landing on top of another plane waiting on a runway to depart.
The changes, which the National Transportation Safety Board had recommended to the FAA over the past six years, were announced last week and had been scheduled to begin March 20, at the peak of the spring-break travel period.
The proposed tightening of rules governing how planes line up at airports for takeoff would appear to help prevent a rare type of accident that could cause hundreds of deaths in a single collision.
The FAA's notice to airport air-traffic control towers last week said mistakes are continuing to occur involving planes taxiing onto an active runway when an approaching plane is about to land on the same runway or an intersecting runway.
On Feb. 17, a controller at Los Angeles International Airport directed three aircraft to use the same runway, the FAA said. A departing SkyWest turboprop was cleared to use a runway on which a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737 was about to land. The controller also cleared an Air Canada jet to cross the other end of the same runway.
Other incidents have occurred in recent years in Salt Lake City, Ft. Lauderdale and at Midway Airport in Chicago, officials said.
But the FAA, reacting to related safety issues and concerns about flight delays ballooning, told the airlines, the air-traffic controllers and pilots unions on Tuesday that it would grant at least temporary waivers from the new rules, starting with the nation's 35 busiest airports.
The FAA won't force airports to change their takeoff procedures, "but by March 20 airport towers will have to explain to us why they want to continue using it," said Russell Chew, the FAA's chief operating officer.
As a result, no immediate changes are expected at O'Hare International Airport, Midway or Mitchell International Airport in Milwaukee, officials said. But several hundred medium-size and smaller airports could lose an air-traffic tool they have used to keep flights bound for larger airports on schedule.
The controllers union said the FAA's planned change would add to congestion at already crowded airports, reducing the number of planes able to arrive and depart each hour by as much as 20 percent.
Under existing rules, a plane that is No. 2 in line for departure may taxi onto the runway and stop as soon as the plane in front starts its takeoff roll. Once the first plane is airborne and at least 6,000 feet down the runway, the second plane begins its takeoff roll and the next plane in line on the taxiway moves into takeoff position on the runway.
Air-traffic controllers call the procedure "locked and loaded," because it facilitates launching planes at tight intervals and keeps airports running efficiently.
Under the revisions the FAA was set to impose, planes in the No. 2 departure position would not be permitted to begin taxiing onto the runway until after the plane taking off in front was airborne.
The controllers union, the National Air Traffic Controllers Association, contends the FAA overreacted to a small number of high-profile cases in which human error caused arriving and departing planes to get perilously close to each other.
Controllers said the FAA's fix could unintentionally intensify risks on runways used for landings and takeoffs. Such a scenario would involve a controller directing a plane waiting on a taxiway to proceed to the runway for takeoff while an approaching plane was still 5 miles from touching down. A miscommunication between controller and pilot, or a delay in the plane entering the runway, could lead to a close call between the arriving and departing planes, potentially even a fly-over incident that could lead to a crash.
"You almost must already have the pilot on the runway in position so he is ready to roll when you tell him to," said Doug Fralick, director of safety and technology at the controllers union. "If the plane is still sitting on the taxiway, you lose your predictability because it takes time for the engines to spool up power and the plane to get into position."
----------
jhilkevitch@tribune.com
Copyright © 2006, Chicago Tribune
sopdan
Well-Known Member
Word for us today was that in order to use pos. and hold, the tower had to have a local controller, ground controller, and supervisor on duty at all times. Needless to say the contract towers probably aren't gonna be able to do that (our's for sure). Oddly enough they said that only larger airports would be able to have those staffing levels... while (from what I was told) the larger airports are where the problems have been occurring. hmmmm.....
meritflyer
Well-Known Member
Do you personally fly out of JFK? Why wouldnt they be ticked if you didnt read back position and hold instructions?? It could be a major major safety concern if you didnt.
NightCargo
Well-Known Member
If "position and hold" is really going away, I hope I never, ever see PHL again. That place is such a cluster as it is that this will bring the takeoff que to its knees. Not that PHL is (or ever has been) known for its stellar on-time performance, but this will be hysterical. Too bad I don't get paid by the hour anymore!
NightCargo
NightCargo