planned fuel at destination

seagull

seagull

Well-Known Member
Hello. Wondering what your company's typical planned fuel at touchdown at the destination (or what ever term you use for it) is for:

1. VMC weather?

2. your alternate if IMC. ?

3. Also, what is your company policy on declaring an alternate?

If you could name your company it would be great too.

Thanks
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hello. Wondering what your company's typical planned fuel at touchdown at the destination (or what ever term you use for it) is for:

1. VMC weather?

2. your alternate if IMC. ?

3. Also, what is your company policy on declaring an alternate?

If you could name your company it would be great too.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Right now with the crappy Korea WX, and the very conservative way we run our jets, we're carrying 45 minute reserve at touchdown at destination, and 1 hour at touchdown for IFR. So the appropriate additions to these need to be added for IAF to missed point, typically 600 pounds).

For us, alternate declaration works this way (different from civil rules):

3-3-2: Destination WX +/- 1 hour is forecast to be less than 3000/3 or 2 above the lowest compatible published min visibility value, you need an alternate. We also file an alternate for the standard items:

1. If all destination approaches require radar.
2. GPS is the only available navaid at destination
3. Navaids are unmonitored
4. No destination WX reporting capability.

1-2-5-1: Alternate WX at +/- arrival time must be forecast (TEMPO or prevailing, unless TSTM or RW/SW) to be 1000/2, or 500/1 above the lowest approach mins, whichever is higher. If no published approach at alternate, forecast at ETA must permit a VFR descent to landing.

For helicopters, we have to designate an alternate if the destination WX +/- 1 hour is (TEMPO or prevailing) to be less than 700/1. For the alternate, +/- 1 hour, the forecast must be 700/1 or 500/0.5 above the lowest compatible.

For remote or island destinations where there is no alternate available, the WX forecast for the destination now must be at or better than the WX requirements for alternate mins as described above. For fighter types remote/island ops, fuel reserve must be enough for destination plus 30 minutes holding, plus penetration and landing. For heavy aircraft in this same situation, if prevailing WX requires an alternate, fuel will be computed to have 2 hours holding at destination fix minimum.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Hello. Wondering what your company's typical planned fuel at touchdown at the destination (or what ever term you use for it) is for:

1. VMC weather?

2. your alternate if IMC. ?

3. Also, what is your company policy on declaring an alternate?

If you could name your company it would be great too.

Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on base and loads. If we are full, and it's VMC, they will plan us to destination, plus IFR reserves, plus maybe 20 minutes of contingency fuel (runway changes, call for release, etc.). If it's IFR, then we have fuel for destination, alternate, IFR reserves, and maybe 30 mins contingency and 30 mins "extra" fuel. The "extra" fuel isn't required for release, but is just there in our gate fuel.

Basically put, we'll always have enough for destination, alternate, reserve, some contingency, some extra, and taxi fuel. It varies depending on weather, expected holding, and expected ground hold times.

For the alternate question, do you mean the weather requirements?
 
OK, based on Mike's reply, I think you are talking about weather reqs for alternate.

Destination: 1-2-3 rule.

Alternate: If there are two approaches from different navaids, then you will add 1/2 mi vis and 200 ft to the less restrictive approach. So if it's a standard ILS with 1/2 mi vis and 200 DA, you'll be 1 mi and 400 ft. If it is one approach, or multiple approaches from one navaid (three VOR approaches, like in Mexico) you'll have 1 mi and 400 ft added to the minimums.

Then there is exemption 3585, which I really don't want to type out right now.
smile.gif


We also have alternate requirements for excessive wind, RVR, braking, among other things.

Takeoff alternate: Standard alternate reqs.

I'll look this all up tomorrow to make sure I'm 100% correct on it. I'll look up all our alternate requirements for other than visibility (braking, wind, etc.). Our dispatchers are really generous with providing alternates.
 
No, I really don't care what you're using for alternate wx requirements. What I want is what you gave, how much fuel are you normally flight planned to have at touchdown at the destination, particularly VMC, is IMC can have all sorts of issues.

The question on the alternate was only if your company filed one if the wx does not require it.
 
[ QUOTE ]
The question on the alternate was only if your company filed one if the wx does not require it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.
 
At Mesa, we're integrating the fuel policy used by United. We plan to land with 60min - 45min reserve + 15min contingency. We should not put on any extra fuel unless we plan to burn it, whether it's because there's high demand at the destination and expect holding, or to avoid enroute weather, or maybe wait out some weather at the destination, etc.

I used to be one that believed in loading up with as much fuel as possible, but after going to an information session about the United policy I changed my ways. They are saving tens of millions of dollars with no loss to safety and actually have a drop in diversion rate. Fuel is not a direct cost for us since our mainline partners pay for our fuel, but we're doing our part to help keep our partners operating. If a captain calls me to ask about putting on extra fuel, I'll almost always say "no problem" since the captain is the one flying up there and I want him to be comfortable with his fuel load. Safety and the pilots' comfort come before mainline's money.

We don't have any guidelines for when to add an alternate when it's not legally required. I'll add an alternate if I think there's good reason to give the captain a second option. When the TAF is P6SM SKC all day and I see a thunderstorm moving that way, I'll usually give an alternate. When the CA coast has been 1/4SM all morning but the TAF says it will magically go to P6SM in an hour, I don't trust the TAF and give an alternate. When it looks like I'll be bumping pax with an unrequired alternate, I'll usually give them an extra 15-30min of hold fuel.

United is trying to change the 123 rules and they say it looks like the change may happen next year sometime. For cat 3 approaches, their proposal is the 111 rule - 1 hr before or after, 1000' and 1SM.
 
At ASA the "policy" is per the FAR's.....that being said when it is VFR we almost always land with 3000-3500 lbs (assuming no tankering). Which is roughly an hour or so when you add in the missed approach etc...Our company is pretty good about giving alternates and will give you on and the fuel any time the weather is even close to iffy. I've ben given alternates when the weather was forecast as 3000' ovc and light rain with 10sm. Certain dispatchers also have reputations for being pilot/fuel friendly as well.
 
Just thought I'd bump this up again.

At your company, VMC wx, how much over min FAR fuel do you normally dispatch with, and do most Capts accept that?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Just thought I'd bump this up again.

At your company, VMC wx, how much over min FAR fuel do you normally dispatch with, and do most Capts accept that?

[/ QUOTE ]

I figure you're asking in terms of time, since pounds likely won't mean much of a measure.

Generally 45 minutes to one hour over VMC mins. Very conservative and acceptable. Equates to about 1500 pounds.
 
VMC reserves are usually 2200 lbs and we usually are flight planned to land with 3000-3500. Most captains are pretty comfortable with that.
 
When it's VMC for the entire route I plan for the required 45min reserve plus 15min for contingency. When there's weather enroute, I'll usually give them another 15min or give an exaggerated reroute that they will most likely shorten.
 
VMC, we'll dispatch with standard reserves (around 1850-1950#) plus some contingency and extra fuel, usually totalling around 600-900# with clear weather.

If the weather is good, expect reserve plus contingency fuel to be around 2300-2500#, and in bad weather, more like 3000-3600#.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top