Piper Aztec Turbo Maneuvers
- Thread starter nippy31
- Start date
Looking4Lower
New Member
Turbo Aztec?
GregCollins2
Well-Known Member
FAR 61.195(f) requires an MEI to have 5 hours of make and model PIC time before providing instruction for any certificate or rating in that make and model (gives you a chance to get to know the airplane). Even if your student is already multi engine rated, it would be irresponsible to instruct in any unfamiliar make and model without at least reading the POH thoroughly and memorizing power settings and emergency procedures checklists.
Let me rephrase what I'm looking for. I already have more than 5 hours pic time in this plane. I've just never done stalls, slow flight, emergency descents, single approaches in this ac. I was just wondering if anyone here has flown this ac and knows of some good power setting.s This is the first twin I've flown that is turbo, so I'm not used to having such a high MP setting. I've also read the POH and the only power setting they give is that for various cruise settings. So any help would be appreciated or if any of you know of sites that I could go to.
Thanks
Thanks
USMCmech
Well-Known Member
Don't get too caught up by the bigger numbers on the MAP gage. The engine dosen't care as long as you don't overboost it. If you do accidently overboost, don't worry too much, there is a overpressure relief valve somewhere in the induction system. A mechanic still needs to check it out.
When you are idleing, look at the MAP and make a note of that reading. The POH should have a high limit for take off (uesually about 40"). Anything in the middle is fair game.
Flying a fixed turbo is more a "it's in the ballpark" game due to the fact that every time you change anything, you will change the MAP. So don't worry if your MAP never totally behaves.
Read this article from AVWeb about flying with a fixed turbo.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/188856-1.html
When you are idleing, look at the MAP and make a note of that reading. The POH should have a high limit for take off (uesually about 40"). Anything in the middle is fair game.
Flying a fixed turbo is more a "it's in the ballpark" game due to the fact that every time you change anything, you will change the MAP. So don't worry if your MAP never totally behaves.
Read this article from AVWeb about flying with a fixed turbo.
http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/188856-1.html
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
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I already have more than 5 hours pic time in this plane.
[/ QUOTE ]
What, as safety pilot? It chaps my ass that someone can occupy the right seat, get 5 hours of "PIC" time, and then go give instruction in that airplane. How do I know it was safety pilot time? I don't, but if you had 5 hours of REAL PIC time, you wouldn't saying....
[ QUOTE ]
I've just never done stalls, slow flight, emergency descents, single approaches in this ac. I was just wondering if anyone here has flown this ac and knows of some good power setting.s
Thanks
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that stuff's not important anyways.
You sure got a thorough checkout in it, didn't you?
You shouldn't need power settings to do slow flight and stalls. Use whatever power it takes, keeping things in the green. The actual setting is going to vary based on weight, atmospheric conditions, etc anyways.. There is a procedure in the POH for the emergency descent, I know that for a fact, so apparently you didn't read it too well. Single engine approaches? There's a single engine approach speed published, so use whatever power it takes to maintain that- again it varies.
Five hours of "PIC" time should have given you a better idea than you seem to have about these things. Don't mean to sound harsh, but maybe the guy should find another instructor or you should get a real checkout. You sound like an accident waiting to happen. Probable cause: Instructor's lack of familiarity with the airplane.
I already have more than 5 hours pic time in this plane.
[/ QUOTE ]
What, as safety pilot? It chaps my ass that someone can occupy the right seat, get 5 hours of "PIC" time, and then go give instruction in that airplane. How do I know it was safety pilot time? I don't, but if you had 5 hours of REAL PIC time, you wouldn't saying....
[ QUOTE ]
I've just never done stalls, slow flight, emergency descents, single approaches in this ac. I was just wondering if anyone here has flown this ac and knows of some good power setting.s
Thanks
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, that stuff's not important anyways.
You sure got a thorough checkout in it, didn't you?
You shouldn't need power settings to do slow flight and stalls. Use whatever power it takes, keeping things in the green. The actual setting is going to vary based on weight, atmospheric conditions, etc anyways.. There is a procedure in the POH for the emergency descent, I know that for a fact, so apparently you didn't read it too well. Single engine approaches? There's a single engine approach speed published, so use whatever power it takes to maintain that- again it varies.
Five hours of "PIC" time should have given you a better idea than you seem to have about these things. Don't mean to sound harsh, but maybe the guy should find another instructor or you should get a real checkout. You sound like an accident waiting to happen. Probable cause: Instructor's lack of familiarity with the airplane.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
Here's some reading material about what can happen if you're unfamiliar or not current in the airplane. All in some variation of Aztec, all fatal. Enjoy.
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010920X01974&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The loss of right engine power for undetermined reasons, and the pilot's failure to maintain control of the aircraft due to his improper single engine emergency procedures.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21056&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The failure of the PIC to maintain control of the aircraft while in the simulated engine inoperative configuration in the landing pattern during a checkout flight resulting in an uncontrolled descent and collision with trees. A factor in the accident is the inadequate monitoring of aircraft control by the checkout pilot.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X09196&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The failure of the pilot to maintain airspeed after being distracted by the nose baggage door opening in-flight resulting in a stall/spin. Factors contributing to the accident were the pilot's inadequate preflight inspection and lack of experience in the type aircraft.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X09095&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The flight instructor's inadequate in-flight decision and his failure to maintain adequate airspeed which resulted in a loss of control. Contributing was the flight instructor's failure to follow standard practices while simulating and practicing emergency procedures which resulted in his initiating of a single-engine go around and reduced climb performance.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03684&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
LOSS OF AIRCRAFT CONTROL DURING A GO-AROUND, DUE TO FAILURE OF THE FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR (CFI) TO ASSURE THAT THE MINIMUM CONTROL SPEED (VMC) WAS MAINTAINED. FACTORS RELATING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE: SHUTDOWN OF THE LEFT ENGINE, WHICH WOULD HAVE PREVENTED NORMAL GEAR EXTENSION, AND POSSIBLE HABIT INTERFERENCE BY THE CFI (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF AIRCRAFT THAT HE HAD RECENTLY FLOWN). (Sorry about the caps, thats how it came)
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13624&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
INADVERTENT FEATHERING OF BOTH PROPELLERS BY THE STUDENT PILOT, WHICH RESULTED IN A LOSS OF POWER, AND FAILURE (OR INABILITY) OF THE INSTRUCTOR PILOT (CFI) TO ATTAIN REMEDIAL ACTION. A FACTOR RELATED TO THE ACCIDENT WAS: THE STUDENT PILOT'S HABIT INTERFERENCE, CONCERNING THE DIFFERENT POSITION OF THE ENGINE CONTROLS IN THIS AIRPLANE, AS COMPARED THE THE PREVIOUS AIRPLANE THAT HE HAD FLOWN.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20010920X01974&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The loss of right engine power for undetermined reasons, and the pilot's failure to maintain control of the aircraft due to his improper single engine emergency procedures.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001212X21056&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The failure of the PIC to maintain control of the aircraft while in the simulated engine inoperative configuration in the landing pattern during a checkout flight resulting in an uncontrolled descent and collision with trees. A factor in the accident is the inadequate monitoring of aircraft control by the checkout pilot.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X09196&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The failure of the pilot to maintain airspeed after being distracted by the nose baggage door opening in-flight resulting in a stall/spin. Factors contributing to the accident were the pilot's inadequate preflight inspection and lack of experience in the type aircraft.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001208X09095&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The flight instructor's inadequate in-flight decision and his failure to maintain adequate airspeed which resulted in a loss of control. Contributing was the flight instructor's failure to follow standard practices while simulating and practicing emergency procedures which resulted in his initiating of a single-engine go around and reduced climb performance.
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001207X03684&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
LOSS OF AIRCRAFT CONTROL DURING A GO-AROUND, DUE TO FAILURE OF THE FLIGHT INSTRUCTOR (CFI) TO ASSURE THAT THE MINIMUM CONTROL SPEED (VMC) WAS MAINTAINED. FACTORS RELATING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE: SHUTDOWN OF THE LEFT ENGINE, WHICH WOULD HAVE PREVENTED NORMAL GEAR EXTENSION, AND POSSIBLE HABIT INTERFERENCE BY THE CFI (DUE TO THE NUMBER OF AIRCRAFT THAT HE HAD RECENTLY FLOWN). (Sorry about the caps, thats how it came)
[/ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X13624&key=1
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
INADVERTENT FEATHERING OF BOTH PROPELLERS BY THE STUDENT PILOT, WHICH RESULTED IN A LOSS OF POWER, AND FAILURE (OR INABILITY) OF THE INSTRUCTOR PILOT (CFI) TO ATTAIN REMEDIAL ACTION. A FACTOR RELATED TO THE ACCIDENT WAS: THE STUDENT PILOT'S HABIT INTERFERENCE, CONCERNING THE DIFFERENT POSITION OF THE ENGINE CONTROLS IN THIS AIRPLANE, AS COMPARED THE THE PREVIOUS AIRPLANE THAT HE HAD FLOWN.
[/ QUOTE ]
Looking4Lower
New Member
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I've also read the POH and the only power setting they give is that for various cruise settings.
[/ QUOTE ]
What settings are you looking for, if not for cruise? Aren't takeoff and climb power settings established in the POH? Are you asking what power settings that Turbo Aztec drivers PREFER?
Sorry I can't help - I have plenty of turbocharged engine experience, and plenty of Aztec experience, but no Turbo Aztec time.
I've also read the POH and the only power setting they give is that for various cruise settings.
[/ QUOTE ]
What settings are you looking for, if not for cruise? Aren't takeoff and climb power settings established in the POH? Are you asking what power settings that Turbo Aztec drivers PREFER?
Sorry I can't help - I have plenty of turbocharged engine experience, and plenty of Aztec experience, but no Turbo Aztec time.
Man a little harsh on the posts here. I was just looking for some power settings. I know how to do stalls and can figure out the maneuvers. I'm just not a fan of telling my student " um try 16 MAP, 2200RPM, um, next time try 13MAP and so forth", I'd rather have some rule of thumb settings in advance. I was just looking for some advice on how others may have taught in a similar aircraft. As far as being an accident waiting to happen... thanks for being so kind. I'm not a super pilot or anything but I am familiar with the critical airspeeds and Vmc. I try my best to fly as safe as possible and to seek advice from others when I'm not familiar with something. I guess this was the wrong place to ask for some help.
EatSleepFly
Well-Known Member
No, this is definitely the correct place to ask for help. I just think its irresponsible to give initial instruction/checkouts in an aircraft you haven't been thoroughly checked out in yourself. If the person you were flying with was experienced in the airplane, that might be different, but by the sounds of it, he/she is not. Anyways, sorry if I came across harsh, but thats my $.02 and I'm standing by it.
mtsu_av8er
Well-Known Member
I won't take any sides here...however, if I were the duty expert in every airplane I had to teach in, I'd be broke and hungry.
GregCollins2
Well-Known Member
The rule of thumb with most turbos is to use the same power settings as you would in any complex aircraft and then adjust as you feel you need to. Climb at the maximum MAP that will not overboost and full fine on the props. At 500' reduce MAP to 25" and RPM to 2500. Cruise depends on desired efficiency or speed but will range from 19" MAP to 23" MAP and 2100 RPM to 2350 RPM, follow the POH. Departure stalls should be practiced at at least 65% power, though anything up to full power without overboosting is appropriate, 30"MAP and full fine on the props works well. Approach to landing stalls should be practiced at 15" to 16" MAP and full fine on the props for drag, gear down and whatever flap setting you prefer. Be careful about not overboosting the engines on recovery from stalls and slow flight. As far as instrument approaches are concerned, lower the gear, deploy 10 degrees of flaps, and pitch for 90 knots while reducing MAP in increments, when you get a 500' per minute descent rate you have found the power setting for ILS approaches, when you get 700' per minute you've found the power setting for nonprecision approaches. Downwind in the pattern will be roughly 20" MAP and 2300 RPM, if you get 100 knots in level flight with the gear down, you're good, if not, adjust the MAP.
One long familiarization flight by yourself, or with the student, while taking notes, should be enough to find the right numbers, it's also a great drill for practicing precise control of the aircraft while establishing constant speed/rate climbs and descents. The best way to fly any light aircraft is by sight, sound, and feel, the numbers are only a starting point.
I think the only reason some of us get our hackles up, is that it is a CFI's job to learn how an aircraft behaves before we take students up and teach them what to do. The FAA's intent behind the 5 hours of PIC time in multiengine aircraft is for the instructor to learn the aircraft. As professional flight instructors we are hired by the student as experts. When I fly a new make/model, I either take the aircraft up by myself and try all of the required manuevers, or I admit to the student my lack of first hand knowledge, and if they are ok with that, we go up together and experiment. In most cases, the insurance requires that I get the hours in the aircraft before I instruct, so that means the owner has to let me fly the airplane if he wants me to be his instructor.
One long familiarization flight by yourself, or with the student, while taking notes, should be enough to find the right numbers, it's also a great drill for practicing precise control of the aircraft while establishing constant speed/rate climbs and descents. The best way to fly any light aircraft is by sight, sound, and feel, the numbers are only a starting point.
I think the only reason some of us get our hackles up, is that it is a CFI's job to learn how an aircraft behaves before we take students up and teach them what to do. The FAA's intent behind the 5 hours of PIC time in multiengine aircraft is for the instructor to learn the aircraft. As professional flight instructors we are hired by the student as experts. When I fly a new make/model, I either take the aircraft up by myself and try all of the required manuevers, or I admit to the student my lack of first hand knowledge, and if they are ok with that, we go up together and experiment. In most cases, the insurance requires that I get the hours in the aircraft before I instruct, so that means the owner has to let me fly the airplane if he wants me to be his instructor.
Looking4Lower
New Member
[ QUOTE ]
, I'd rather have some rule of thumb settings in advance.
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Power for takeoff, climb, and cruise settings should be discussed in the POH. For these numbers, there's probably no need to guess or make up your own power settings. The only thing would be to cross-check your cruise TAS and fuel burns to the book (it won't quite match) and note the actual numbers for flight planning purposes. But this should be a good start.
As for certain maneuvers such approach-to-stalls and configuring for an ILS (I think this is what you're asking about)...you're on your own!
, I'd rather have some rule of thumb settings in advance.
[/ QUOTE ]
Power for takeoff, climb, and cruise settings should be discussed in the POH. For these numbers, there's probably no need to guess or make up your own power settings. The only thing would be to cross-check your cruise TAS and fuel burns to the book (it won't quite match) and note the actual numbers for flight planning purposes. But this should be a good start.
As for certain maneuvers such approach-to-stalls and configuring for an ILS (I think this is what you're asking about)...you're on your own!