Pinnacle Pilots Question......

dbrault17

Well-Known Member
Of those working for Pinnacle at the time of the concessionary TA, who would have actually resigned had the bankruptcy court issued its own terms on the pilots? I'm just really curious to know how many pilots would have worked under such terms.

I have a theory that most people of all occupations (labor especially) will work for peanuts if given the right pep talk. I've seen it in aviation, manufacturing, and now construction.
 
I don't think that's a valid question, because (as far as I understand it) although draconian terms would have been imposed by the bankruptcy courts under 1113c the pilots would have been able to bargain for a new TA as a condition of exiting bankruptcy.
 
Of those working for Pinnacle at the time of the concessionary TA, who would have actually resigned had the bankruptcy court issued its own terms on the pilots? I'm just really curious to know how many pilots would have worked under such terms.

I have a theory that most people of all occupations (labor especially) will work for peanuts if given the right pep talk. I've seen it in aviation, manufacturing, and now construction.
Luckily we stopped that nonsense late in the game and it forced Pinnacle back to the table. The judge publicly blasted them for not negotiating them and hinting that's the only reason he couldn't slap them with a "negotiating in bad faith" tag. Even if he had found them as such, it wouldn't have mattered, the company was running out of DIP funds (purposefully).

You have to understand that while many pilot groups claimed they had a higher value contract than the Pinnacle JCBA they are misinformed or purposefully lying. The JCBA soft pay was a huge part of the of our contract and the BK couldn't be made to understand that. When the BK judge was going to have the company change "a few things" and come back to him, he was going to let them go ahead and gut the soft pay. Soft pay means a lot on this contract. We signed a 7 year deal to keep the soft pay, betting that the company would put themselves in a bad position with the proposed pay rates and have to come back an negotiate.

/you may not care about the below
That's a style Nagel and Wychor have always had success with. A lot of guys are painfully stupid when we sign something that may not make sense to either pilots or management, but later on the light goes on above their head when they realize the company needs to change something "stupid" in the contract becaues they're screwed (and so are we a little) and it has caused them to come back later and give us what we wanted. The 3 day pickup restriction is an example.
/back on topic

There would be an additional hit on the paycheck for the reserve and the line holders not having the soft pay from the BK judge. I think you would have seen an exodus higher than what we've had (more than 1100 gone as of last SLI).

To answer you're question directly: Few if any would resign. It is stupid to if you pay your own bills. If you live with mom and dad or your wife makes great money maybe. Most of us live in the real world... I would have gone as far away as Virgin for a job if I can't have the soft pay protection. Instead of 1100 gone to date you'd probably see more like 1500. As soon as you go on reserve at this company or a bottom line holder you might as well go to ASA and start all over again.

Internet tough guys do that "I'll quit!!!" 9E guys are right back where they started. 9L still had a pay raise. XJ got screwed in BK again. People quit 9L and 9E in droves when there were better paying jobs. When there are better paying jobs than what you have you move on, that's the order of things. No one is wealthy in this industry, save a few, who can just quit or resign because of such and such.

The only group I've ever heard of ready to quit during a BK ask that was imposed on them was Mesaba. They had rental cars provided by the union standing by at the outstations. Mesaba/MAIR never imposed the ask, they were scared to death we'd all walk off and leave their Saabs at the outstations. Back then though, MAIR had hundreds of millions in the bank, Pinnacle couldn't make their payroll every two weeks.
 
I got hired at RAH right after the BK TA was announced over there and there were half a dozen PNCL/Colgan/Mesaba guys and girls that bailed and were in my new hire class here, along with more in the classes after mine. I still have friends that stayed, but they were all 5+ years seniority.
 
I got hired at RAH right after the BK TA was announced over there and there were half a dozen PNCL/Colgan/Mesaba guys and girls that bailed and were in my new hire class here, along with more in the classes after mine. I still have friends that stayed, but they were all 5+ years seniority.
Were you in the Republic or Shuttle class?
 
I think that question is impossible to answer. As pilots, it's our personalities to keep evaluating situations. I personally would have waited to see what happened and then made a decision from there.
 
I was at 900 something hours in the left seat so I would have stayed as long SD possible. I got my "1,000" but ironically enough got hired before I got there. So yes, I woulda stayed til I lost the left seat.
 
Of those working for Pinnacle at the time of the concessionary TA, who would have actually resigned had the bankruptcy court issued its own terms on the pilots? I'm just really curious to know how many pilots would have worked under such terms.

I have a theory that most people of all occupations (labor especially) will work for peanuts if given the right pep talk. I've seen it in aviation, manufacturing, and now construction.

I truly don't believe we would have had a choice. Delta made it abundantly clear that if we didn't have a deal then we were to be shut down. In other words, an imposed contract would have only been for the time necessary to completely wind us down. They said 1 year. Probably would have been 2, but either way this place would have folded.
 
I truly don't believe we would have had a choice. Delta made it abundantly clear that if we didn't have a deal then we were to be shut down. In other words, an imposed contract would have only been for the time necessary to completely wind us down. They said 1 year. Probably would have been 2, but either way this place would have folded.

Scare tactics 101.

Delta 1. Pinnacle pilot group - 0

Then let it fold, have a spine and attempt to quell the race below the bottom..

Nothing will ever get any better if pilots at this level cannot stop cutting each other's throats to work for slave wages and piss poor treatment..

Look at the latest Block award, are things getting better?
 
Scare tactics 101.

Delta 1. Pinnacle pilot group - 0

Then let it fold, have a spine and attempt to quell the race below the bottom..

Nothing will ever get any better if pilots at this level cannot stop cutting each other's throats to work for slave wages and piss poor treatment..

Look at the latest Block award, are things getting better?

First of all, asking somebody else to fall on their sword so YOUR life can be better is just about the most douchbag thing you can do. Secondly, once Delta shut us down they could then go to the rest of DCI and say "we just shut down Comair and Pinnacle because they wouldn't get a deal, who's next?"

How does that stop the race to the bottom?

We're less than a year out of bankruptcy, things are slowly getting better but it does take some time to unscrew a really screwed up company.
 
Unfortunately there just a couple thousand jobs to go around and more than 10K thousand pilots. Put your hand up if you want job job? No? No problem. Pilots can't hold the line on anything when it comes to regionals, just make the contract reasonable.

We can't staff a class and the Delta people roaming the training dept halls asking "what would it take to get some pilots to stay?" are entreated to the same answers, "you're going to haveto give them their money back," or "a passrate at the SSP back in thr 70's." Delta's guys have scoffed and cried laughing "that's fine we'll just park them faster."

Just move up if you can, if you can't move sideways, but don't bitch when the next regional you go to gets the same treatment from Delta.

It's over, we're all dead, we just don't know it yet.
 
First of all, asking somebody else to fall on their sword so YOUR life can be better is just about the most douchbag thing you can do. Secondly, once Delta shut us down they could then go to the rest of DCI and say "we just shut down Comair and Pinnacle because they wouldn't get a deal, who's next?"

How does that stop the race to the bottom?

We're less than a year out of bankruptcy, things are slowly getting better but it does take some time to unscrew a really screwed up company.

I never asked nor suggested one man to fall on their sword. One man isn't going to change anything.

It's going to take a group effort to stop the race past the bottom, but I think the sad fact of life is that the tide cannot be changed.

That said, the only person who could make my life better was me, and I already "fell on my sword." I had no idea how wrecked the regional business is until I got out and took off the "I get to fly a jet!" colored glasses..

Things are getting better? It sure sounds like it, Colgan guys bumping guys 4 years senior to them out of the left seat and senior guys are barely holding min days off, what's better?
 
Secondly, once Delta shut us down they could then go to the rest of DCI and say "we just shut down Comair and Pinnacle because they wouldn't get a deal, who's next?"

How does that stop the race to the bottom?

We're less than a year out of bankruptcy, things are slowly getting better but it does take some time to unscrew a really screwed up company.

They could go to the next carrier and say exactly that, but it's not quite true. It's no secret that regionals can't find enough guys to put in the seats of the planes they already have and hiring at real airlines isn't helping that issue. Everyone just conveniently seems to keep forgetting that. The regional airline model is dead and has been for some time. There's nothing to really be lost by telling a company to go fornicate themselves. Shutting the doors is going to happen anyway, may as well get paid in the meantime. It'd be nice to see pilots have a backbone for once.
 
I had no idea how wrecked the regional business is until I got out and took off the "I get to fly a jet!" colored glasses.

That's just because you started off in a dirty ass Jball.

Those of us that went from the comfort of Seminole straight to a Jeeeeettttt!!!!111!! just didn't know any better.
 
That's just because you started off in a dirty ass Jball.

Those of us that went from the comfort of Seminole straight to a Jeeeeettttt!!!!111!! just didn't know any better.

Ohh yes, that's right. Almost forgot all about that mistress..

Dirty.. Man, those things were nasty! LOL
 
For me, I had a line in the sand drawn on paper. I was commuting to JFK and still a CA, but the writing was on the wall as far as what was happening down the road with the -200s. IF I had stayed, I'd have seen a paycut and been displaced to DTW, which is a HELL commute from here. Or, I could have taken an even bigger paycut and bid -900 FO to stay in JFK. All of those options got me pretty close to the financial line I had figured out. The sad part? The financial line was based on going back to working at the theme parks, being home every night and not having to shell out $$$$ for a crash pad or airport food all the time. If I had stayed at 9E, I'm about 99% sure I'd be working back at Space Mountain right now. I tried talking to a lot of FOs about it, but I ran into a couple of issues there. Many FOs we had when I was there, it was their first real job. A LOT of them had just come out of college and had a huge mountain of debt. Therefore, they weren't even looking outside of aviation to make ends meet. They really couldn't afford to start over somewhere else at that point. The screwed up part is that a night shift manager at BK is comparable in finances to an FO at a regional. My plan back in mid-late 2012 was that I wasn't going to be at 9E in 6 months, one way or the other. I was already getting things set up to punch out of aviation at that point.

Luckily, I didn't have to make any of the tough decisions, but that was my thought process at the time.
 
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