Pilot Deviation Question

centralhome

Well-Known Member
Yesterday I was on an IFR training flight with a student. We were on the ILS runway 6 at a towered airport. Approach had given us direct to the VOR for our missed approach, which would be roughly a 330 heading. When we switched to tower there was a bonanza that was coming in to land on runway 13, so tower told us to go to runway heading on our missed. We went missed and runway heading. When told to contact approach, my student starting going to the VOR instead of staying on runway heading. I should have stopped him and kept him on runway heading, but I just screwed up and did not (guess anyone can make a mistake).I had seen the bonanza coming in for 13. The controller immediately said traffic alert at our 9 o'clock as soon as we switched. We told him we had the traffic. There was no evasive action that had to be taken. And then he gave us a number to call when we were on the ground.
I called, and the lady I spoke with said she would have to file a report. There was not a loss of seperation.
I have never had any deviation or problems in the 14 years I've been flying.
I was just wondering what to expect, and what kind of trouble I could possibly be in?
I did file NASA report as soon as I got home.

Thanks for any replies.
 

davolijj

New Member
How do you know there was no loss of separation, did the lady tell you that? If the deviation resulted in a loss of standard radar separation (3 miles) assuming the tower was not using visual, then the ATC facility has to file a pilot deviation in order to account for the error.
 

centralhome

Well-Known Member
When I first talked to her she said there was a loss of seperation.
Then she called me back about 10 minutes later and said that there was not a loss because the tower was providing visual seperation. She said she would be sure and note on her report that there was not loss of seperation.
 

whysoserial

New Member
Can you get in trouble for it? Yes. Will you get in trouble? Doubt it.

Did they ask for your cert # and all the personal info? They should have if they really filed something. They should be telling you it's a POSSIBLE pilot deviation too.

After it's get filed, it's no longer our worries anymore really. No idea what happens after that...someone might call you or something, who knows. Just keep on keeping on and you will probably forget all about it.
 

davolijj

New Member
Well I don't know how FSDO will handle it then, but I would think since it was a training flight and there was no loss of separation and no one had to take evasive action you'll get off pretty easy. Maybe someone with more experience on the flying side can weigh in.

I am kind of surprised she filed it though since there was no separation loss.
 

centralhome

Well-Known Member
While we were in the air, he did say he had a number to call for possible pilot deviation. She only got my name,address and phone number.Not my certificate number.
Thanks for all the responses.
 

vheissu

Well-Known Member
Good job on filing the NASA report. I would also speak with an Aviation Attorney before answering any questions with the FAA.
 

mdolezal

Well-Known Member
Certainly a call to AOPA wouldn't hurt, or their legal services. AOPA is a great resource, and I don't even work for them. Just helpful.
 

centralhome

Well-Known Member
I do pay for the legal service with AOPA.
I just got a certified letter today saying that the incident was under investigation. It says that I can submit any evidence or statement that regards this matter.
I tried calling AOPA, but they close at 6:00.
I will wait and call them Monday and see what they say to do.
But I am kind of nervous because the lady I spoke with at Approach said it would probably be 10 to 30 days before I heard anything. It has only been 5 days. Does receiving this so soon seem normal for such an incident?
Thanks for any help you can give a nervous pilot!
 

tykrtr

Well-Known Member
First, don't be in any kind of hurry to reply to that "invitation" from the F'nAA. You are only submitting evidence that they can use against you. Excellent advice about the AOPA legal services. The speed of the five day response isn't anything to worry about in and of itself. I'm sure what you got is simply a form letter from FSDO that they change the name and date on for each occurrence.

Also, request your own copies of the recordings from ATC. Any format of the request will do, there's no specific form to fill out. As long as you indicate it is a FOIA request on the front or in the letter (for Freedom Of Information Act), ATC will make you a copy on tape (or CD-- we can only make tapes but other places have nifty stuff). Tapes are retained for 45 days (although this one will be retained longer).

As far as the "possible" pilot deviation phraseology, it is simply required. Obviously they thought it WAS a pilot deviation or you wouldn't have heard anything.

You will someday get a call from the "We're not happy until YOU're not happy" FSDO. After apologizing profusely and explaining that your student began to comply with the initial missed approach requirement and that you stopped it (eventually) and avoided traffic, the FSDO will have something to say. They may even ask if you have filed a NASA report, but this would be a good time to tell them that you have (don't lose that receipt!). Perhaps with a little contrition, you may end up with a "letter" placed in a file for a year or two. As long as you don't have any further issues with pilot deviations, you can request that it be removed after that.

Again, retain copies of ALL paperwork, even after anything is "removed" from your record. If someone finds anything after it has been "removed" and you have the evidence that it should have been removed, you shouldn't be able to be penalized for it, but now I'm speculating. Anyway, sorry you're getting the big Pilot Deviation anal probe, but hopefully with an understanding FSDO person and a little friendliness on your part, this will go as well as possible.
 

Bandit_Driver

Gold Member
Definately take your time in repling to the Feds and don't do so with out running it through and attorney first.

Write down everything that happened on a piece of paper and everything you remember about the call.

Save the NASA report receipt.

When you send the FOIA request for the tapes make sure to send it via certified or registered mail return receipt. This way you have a record of when the request was made and when they received. Helps keep them from saying we never got it, etc.

Good luck. Hopefully, nothing will come of it but you still need to be prepared.
 

Juliet Lima

New Member
WOW. what is the AOPA or any flying attorney going to say?? u obviously screwed up. as far as a POSSIBLE pilot deviation goes, it is said in those terms in case the recordings show that it was not actually a pilot deviation and instead a controller deviation (or as we call it OE/OD). anyway, i'm sure u know that all prior ATC clearances are superseded when issued another. so your "fly runway heading" superseded the "direct VOR". it will cost you about $65 for a copy of the ATC recordings, even though it is FOIA.

honestly, i would expect a slap on the wrist. not to worry too much since separation was NOT lost.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
WOW. what is the AOPA or any flying attorney going to say?? u obviously screwed up. as far as a POSSIBLE pilot deviation goes, it is said in those terms in case the recordings show that it was not actually a pilot deviation and instead a controller deviation (or as we call it OE/OD). anyway, i'm sure u know that all prior ATC clearances are superseded when issued another. so your "fly runway heading" superseded the "direct VOR". it will cost you about $65 for a copy of the ATC recordings, even though it is FOIA.

honestly, i would expect a slap on the wrist. not to worry too much since separation was NOT lost.
You've never flight instructed eh? This kind of stuff happens on a regular basis. It's why it's called TRAINING, and folks make mistakes during training. I've had controllers being trained do the exact same thing. One day I was at about 100' AGL after breaking out at 300' AGL on the ILS while in a blizzard and Cleveland Tower says to us, "Sir can you do the sidestep to the parallel?" I think my response to the captain was, "Is he ####ing serious? Tell him we can't make it." Once we touched down another voice comes on the frequency, apologizes and tells us to make the first taxiway we can.

It happens.
 

Juliet Lima

New Member
You've never flight instructed eh? This kind of stuff happens on a regular basis. It's why it's called TRAINING, and folks make mistakes during training.
nope i've never flight instructed. i'm not a pilot. you can call it training all u want. being an instructor and letting the student bust an ATC clearance just for the sake of "training" is asinine.

don't get me wrong, as a controller trainee i made my share of mistakes. i still do. but i'm held responsible for those mistakes. i can't run two planes together and just say that "it happens, i'm training."


It happens.
just because it happens doesn't mean your not responsible for the mistakes. the instructor pilot should've never let it happen. if he did, then it's on him and not the student. either person in the cockpit u wanna blame is up to the two pilots. ATC sees the plane as one entity and doesn't distinguish between student pilot and instructor pilot. instructor pilots shouldn't just be along for the ride. their ultimately responsible for the students actions.
 

davolijj

New Member
You've never flight instructed eh? This kind of stuff happens on a regular basis. It's why it's called TRAINING, and folks make mistakes during training....

It happens.
Here's what you don't understand. When pilots screw up and bust a clearance, no big deal. 98% of the time the controller catches it, fixes it, and no one gets hurt. And it happens more than you think. Missed readbacks more than anything else but pilots constantly screw things up and no pilot deviations are filed, it's just something controllers expect. When a controller screws up it makes national headlines. Last summer a controller was training at Cleaveland Center and had a near midair collision over southwestern PA at FL350. It made national news and both the OJT instructor and the trainee received harsh punishments. Too bad they couldn't have the cavalier view of mistakes that you display. I can just see the quote in USA Today...
Pat Forrey of the National Air Traffic Controller's union said mistakes like these are unfortunate but are to be expected with the volume of training in facilities these days.
"It happens." Forrey said in a press conference Wednesday, "It's why it's called training and folks make mistakes during training."
FAA spokesperson Laura Brown said safety was never compromised.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
nope i've never flight instructed. i'm not a pilot. you can call it training all u want. being an instructor and letting the student bust an ATC clearance just for the sake of "training" is asinine.

don't get me wrong, as a controller trainee i made my share of mistakes. i still do. but i'm held responsible for those mistakes. i can't run two planes together and just say that "it happens, i'm training."



just because it happens doesn't mean your not responsible for the mistakes. the instructor pilot should've never let it happen. if he did, then it's on him and not the student. either person in the cockpit u wanna blame is up to the two pilots. ATC sees the plane as one entity and doesn't distinguish between student pilot and instructor pilot. instructor pilots shouldn't just be along for the ride. their ultimately responsible for the students actions.
You're out of your element here.

You have no idea how much goes into teaching a student while making sure they fly the airplane while making sure EVERYTHING goes perfect. As soon as you have that experience you'll change your tune. Until then, I'll continue to think poorly of most of the controllers that post on this website because you guys have no sense of reality.
 

jtrain609

Anarcho-Bidenist
Here's what you don't understand. When pilots screw up and bust a clearance, no big deal. 98% of the time the controller catches it, fixes it, and no one gets hurt. And it happens more than you think. Missed readbacks more than anything else but pilots constantly screw things up and no pilot deviations are filed, it's just something controllers expect. When a controller screws up it makes national headlines. Last summer a controller was training at Cleaveland Center and had a near midair collision over southwestern PA at FL350. It made national news and both the OJT instructor and the trainee received harsh punishments. Too bad they couldn't have the cavalier view of mistakes that you display. I can just see the quote in USA Today...
Pat Forrey of the National Air Traffic Controller's union said mistakes like these are unfortunate but are to be expected with the volume of training in facilities these days.
"It happens." Forrey said in a press conference Wednesday, "It's why it's called training and folks make mistakes during training."
FAA spokesperson Laura Brown said safety was never compromised.
Oh I beg to differ.

When we screw up too much, we die. You get to go home to your family when you screw up; we don't.
 

zmiller4

Well-Known Member
While Mr. Train is being a little blunt, I totally agree with him (except the generalization about "most controllers" on this site).

Here's what you don't understand. When pilots screw up and bust a clearance, no big deal. 98% of the time the controller catches it, fixes it, and no one gets hurt.
No, what you clearly don't understand is that both sides screw up and both sides help each other out all the time. Don't act like it's a one-way street. I've saved controllers butts and they've saved mine. They screwed me over, too, and I'm sure I've made life difficult for them. But if we screw up we can get fired and make the news every bit as easily as you.

And while it's a little overdramatic, John is right. When we screw up bad, we die.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
I too was given "the number", yesterday actually. And it was my fini flight prior to my upcoming furlough, so possibly my last landing in the 747 ever. I've never been told to call up ATC before (well, once before when another jet busted their altitude in holding and caused loss of separation with us, but obviously that wasn't something we did.) Everything was going well with the flight, and I thought I was actually doing a nice job with the approach and landing at LAX. On taxi in, ground calls and gives the dreaded "Socal would like you to call them, advise when ready to copy the phone number". So the captain calls and we're told they had to break out a Citation behind us (sorry if that was you), due to wake turbulence separation because I had slowed down early. When we were cleared for the approach to 25L, the controller had said cross HUNDA at or above 3500 and maintain 180 knots to LIMMA (the FAF). Well, with everything going on, all three of us in the cockpit must have missed the LIMMA part and thought he was talking about HUNDA. The guy was cool about it and said "don't sweat it; I'm not going to violate you or anything", so I guess that's the last I'll hear about it. I'm still probably going to send a NASA report in for the hell of it. It was a good lesson on "listen the hell up!"

Interesting discussion though on who bears the blame for all of our various screwups, we're human afterall. Though we could perhaps not throw as many spears at each other on the forum. In the end, however, we (the pilots) are the ones moving the metal and bear ultimate responsibility for the safety of our flights. Earlier, we were taxiing at HNL and were told to taxi to "8R via Z A RB, hold short of 8L on RB". There was a NOTAM that said taxiway A west of L restricted to 3-engine or less aircraft. I had to query the controller and ask about the restricted taxiway and he came back and said, "sorry, you're right, taxi via A and Y to hold short of 8L on Y". Of course I'm not going to file any "deviation" paperwork on the controller who made an honest mistake. Had we complied with the clearance, we certainly would have been at fault, not sure what would have happened to the controller, but again we as pilots are totally responsible for everything concerning our flights! It doesn't matter if ATC screws up, or if the dispatcher screws up, or if management screws up, or if the loadmaster screws up, or if the mechanic screws up--in the end of the day it's the crew, and ultimately the Captain, who will be hanged from the highest tree by the FAA and the company.

Pilot and ATC have but only a few precious seconds to make the right call. The lawyers have as long as they want.
 
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