PIC & SIC questions 'bout Part 135

atpwannabe

Well-Known Member
Do I have to meet Part 135 minimums & insurance requirements (they may be one in the same), to sit SIC during a charter flight? This is a King Air I'm talking about with an air charter company.

Once the passengers disembark the a/c and say the a/c returns empty of passengers and it's just me and the other pilot, is that leg considered 135 or 91? If 91, what qualifications must I have in order to sit as PIC?


atp
 

wrxpilot

New Member
Do I have to meet Part 135 minimums & insurance requirements (they may be one in the same), to sit SIC during a charter flight? This is a King Air I'm talking about with an air charter company.

Once the passengers disembark the a/c and say the a/c returns empty of passengers and it's just me and the other pilot, is that leg considered 135 or 91? If 91, what qualifications must I have in order to sit as PIC?


atp
You would definitely have to meet insurance requirements. The 135 requirements are commercial/multi/inst for acting as SIC (no set hour requirements). To act as SIC for 135 in something like a king air, you have to pass a SIC checkride with a qualified check airman. Until then, you cannot log anything or even legally touch anything on 135 flights. The empty leg can be flown part 91, and logged as PIC by you assuming you have commercial/multi/inst. Technically you don't have to have a high alt endorsement, but you should get it anyway. Easy enough to do if the captain has his CFI (doesn't have to be MEI).
 

esa17

Well-Known Member
You would definitely have to meet insurance requirements. The 135 requirements are commercial/multi/inst for acting as SIC (no set hour requirements). To act as SIC for 135 in something like a king air, you have to pass a SIC checkride with a qualified check airman. Until then, you cannot log anything or even legally touch anything on 135 flights. The empty leg can be flown part 91, and logged as PIC by you assuming you have commercial/multi/inst. Technically you don't have to have a high alt endorsement, but you should get it anyway. Easy enough to do if the captain has his CFI (doesn't have to be MEI).
It all sort of depends on the 135 OPSPECs for the company. If the company requires only one pilot say for a B200 then you can log all the time 91/135 as dual received using CFI example you gave. You could also potentially log the time if the OPSPECs required a minimally qualified SIC. As you pointed out, however, the insurance underwriter is the the guy who has everyone by the shorthairs.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
It all sort of depends on the 135 OPSPECs for the company. If the company requires only one pilot say for a B200 then you can log all the time 91/135 as dual received using CFI example you gave. You could also potentially log the time if the OPSPECs required a minimally qualified SIC. As you pointed out, however, the insurance underwriter is the the guy who has everyone by the shorthairs.
OPSPECS or not, I don't see how you could legally log any dual received on a 135 flight. Unless you have had an appropriate 135 checkride, you can't touch anything in that cockpit. For part 91, having a bunch of dual received in a situation like that looks weird. Might as well just do it right and do the SIC ride - it's legitimate time and won't raise questions.
 

atpwannabe

Well-Known Member
There's another thread similiar to mine....."KA200 Job Offer". I'm going to read through it and see what I come up with.

I certainly appreciate the quick response. Just trying to lay out a "doable" plan.


atp
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
If the company requires only one pilot say for a B200 then you can log all the time 91/135 as dual received using CFI example you gave. You could also potentially log the time if the OPSPECs required a minimally qualified SIC. As you pointed out, however, the insurance underwriter is the the guy who has everyone by the shorthairs.
It is a common misunderstanding that single pilot authorization means that you can't have two pilots on a 135 flight logging time.

The single pilot clause allows the operator to use an autopilot instead of a second pilot, it does not require the operator to do so. If the operator chooses to use two pilots than both pilots are "required crewmembers" as per the 135 regulations, and both may log the time appropriately (PIC/SIC).
 

wrxpilot

New Member
It is a common misunderstanding that single pilot authorization means that you can't have two pilots on a 135 flight logging time.

The single pilot clause allows the operator to use an autopilot instead of a second pilot, it does not require the operator to do so. If the operator chooses to use two pilots than both pilots are "required crewmembers" as per the 135 regulations, and both may log the time appropriately (PIC/SIC).
Yep, absolutely 100% correct. This is so often misunderstood... ATP, here's another thread on the subject, including a letter of interpretation from the FAA:

http://forums.jetcareers.com/hot-topic-archive/59421-logging-pic-in-king-air-90-a.html
 

esa17

Well-Known Member
OPSPECS or not, I don't see how you could legally log any dual received on a 135 flight. Unless you have had an appropriate 135 checkride, you can't touch anything in that cockpit. For part 91, having a bunch of dual received in a situation like that looks weird. Might as well just do it right and do the SIC ride - it's legitimate time and won't raise questions.
Wrong, you CAN be there and you CAN "touch things", we do it all the time with the blessing of our FAA POI because as he puts it the F/O is not required to be there by anyone other than the insurance company. The company 135 certificate gets approved by the FAA which allows the company to operate the aircraft single pilot but insurance does not. So, since the plane can legally be operated without the 2nd pilot he isn't a legally required crew member but can log the time accordingly, he just can't log PIC without the requisite 135 checkrides.

It is a common misunderstanding that single pilot authorization means that you can't have two pilots on a 135 flight logging time.

The single pilot clause allows the operator to use an autopilot instead of a second pilot, it does not require the operator to do so. If the operator chooses to use two pilots than both pilots are "required crewmembers" as per the 135 regulations, and both may log the time appropriately (PIC/SIC).
I never said they can't log the time but they aren't "required" crew members if the wording of the OPSPEC doesn't specifically say they are.
 

SteveC

Really?
Staff member
...our FAA POI because as he puts it the F/O is not required to be there by anyone other than the insurance company. The company 135 certificate gets approved by the FAA which allows the company to operate the aircraft single pilot but insurance does not. So, since the plane can legally be operated without the 2nd pilot he isn't a legally required crew member but can log the time accordingly, he just can't log PIC without the requisite 135 checkrides.

I'm thinking that we're talking past each other on this one. Maybe I should set the groundwork by saying that I'm only talking about passenger carrying operations at this point, not freight. The Part 135 FARs require two pilots for all 135 pax carrying operation, and the individual company's OpSpec may allow single pilot operation. Therefore the second pilot is required by the regs, not just the insurance company. He is a required crewmember.
 

wrxpilot

New Member
Wrong, you CAN be there and you CAN "touch things", we do it all the time with the blessing of our FAA POI because as he puts it the F/O is not required to be there by anyone other than the insurance company. The company 135 certificate gets approved by the FAA which allows the company to operate the aircraft single pilot but insurance does not. So, since the plane can legally be operated without the 2nd pilot he isn't a legally required crew member but can log the time accordingly, he just can't log PIC without the requisite 135 checkrides.


I never said they can't log the time but they aren't "required" crew members if the wording of the OPSPEC doesn't specifically say they are.
First of all, the insurance company requirements have NOTHING to do with a SIC being able to log or not log time. It's an insurance requirement, not FAA. If your company is like 99% of 135 charter operators, your OPSPECS are probably setup such that an autopilot may be used in lieu of a SIC for pax ops. That does not mean that an SIC cannot be used. It just means if your company chooses to operate with the autopilot instead of the SIC, they're allowed to. They do NOT have to operate without the SIC though. Here's a link to the Letter of Authorization from the FAA Chief Counsel's office:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/790266-post21.html

Ok, onto the manipulation of flight controls on a 135 flight:
Regardless of what (or what you think) your POI says, this is actually quite clear looking at the regs. First of all, let's look at who can manipulate the flight controls under a part 135 flight:

Sec. 135.115 - Manipulation of controls.
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is --
(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft; or
(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations.

In your own words, you are saying your company chooses to operate 135 flights under the single pilot authorization, and that the 2nd "pilot" is not required. So in other words, you (or whoever the "SIC" is) are considered a passenger. A passenger is not permitted to manipulate the flight controls as stated in FAR 135.115 above.

I think you were a little confused and did not mean to say that you guys choose to operate under the single pilot authorization when you are sitting in the right seat. In other words, you want to be classified under 135.115(a) as a pilot employed by the company and qualified in the aircraft. So what constitutes you (the SIC) being qualified in the aircraft? This is where FAR 135.293 comes into play:

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part135-293-FAR.shtml

Sec. 135.293 - Initial and recurrent pilot testing requirements.

(a) No certificate holder may use a pilot, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless, since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service, that pilot has passed a written or oral test, given by the Administrator or an authorized check pilot, on that pilot's knowledge in the following areas --
(1) The appropriate provisions of parts 61, 91, and 135 of this chapter and the operations specifications and the manual of the certificate holder;
(2) For each type of aircraft to be flown by the pilot, the aircraft powerplant, major components and systems, major appliances, performance and operating limitations, standard and emergency operating procedures, and the contents of the approved Aircraft Flight Manual or equivalent, as applicable;
(3) For each type of aircraft to be flown by the pilot, the method of determining compliance with weight and balance limitations for takeoff, landing and en route operations;
(4) Navigation and use of air navigation aids appropriate to the operation or pilot authorization, including, when applicable, instrument approach facilities and procedures;
(5) Air traffic control procedures, including IFR procedures when applicable;
(6) Meteorology in general, including the principles of frontal systems, icing, fog, thunderstorms, and windshear, and, if appropriate for the operation of the certificate holder, high altitude weather;
(7) Procedures for --
(i) Recognizing and avoiding severe weather situations;
(ii) Escaping from severe weather situations, in case of inadvertent encounters, including low-altitude windshear (except that rotorcraft pilots are not required to be tested on escaping from low-altitude windshear); and
(iii) Operating in or near thunderstorms (including best penetrating altitudes), turbulent air (including clear air turbulence), icing, hail, and other potentially hazardous meteorological conditions; and
(8) New equipment, procedures, or techniques, as appropriate.
(b) No certificate holder may use a pilot, nor may any person serve as a pilot, in any aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service, that pilot has passed a competency check given by the Administrator or an authorized check pilot in that class of aircraft, if single-engine airplane other than turbojet, or that type of aircraft, if helicopter, multiengine airplane, or turbojet airplane, to determine the pilot's competence in practical skills and techniques in that aircraft or class of aircraft. The extent of the competency check shall be determined by the Administrator or authorized check pilot conducting the competency check. The competency check may include any of the maneuvers and procedures currently required for the original issuance of the particular pilot certificate required for the operations authorized and appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft involved. For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to an airplane, means any one of a group of airplanes determined by the Administrator to have a similar means of propulsion, the same manufacturer, and no significantly different handling or flight characteristics. For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to a helicopter, means a basic make and model.
(c) The instrument proficiency check required by §135.297 may be substituted for the competency check required by this section for the type of aircraft used in the check.
(d) For the purpose of this part, competent performance of a procedure or maneuver by a person to be used as a pilot requires that the pilot be the obvious master of the aircraft, with the successful outcome of the maneuver never in doubt.
(e) The Administrator or authorized check pilot certifies the competency of each pilot who passes the knowledge or flight check in the certificate holder's pilot records.
(f) Portions of a required competency check may be given in an aircraft simulator or other appropriate training device, if approved by the Administrator.

In other words, to act as a qualified pilot that can manipulate the controls under part 135, you must be given a check ride that includes an oral and practical test. This check ride must be given by the FAA or a designated check airman (usually the chief pilot has this authorization). It does not differentiate between PIC or SIC - it is REQUIRED for any pilot. This is very common knowledge in the charter world, so you better check into it.
 

jlmflys

Well-Known Member
wrxpilot is correct, deware of bad advice. Some of the replies on this thread are wrong and can get you into trouble. Always refer to the regs and not some ones opinion. this could cause trouble. The return dead leg would be part 91.
 
D

Deleted member 27505

Guest
First of all, the insurance company requirements have NOTHING to do with a SIC being able to log or not log time. It's an insurance requirement, not FAA. If your company is like 99% of 135 charter operators, your OPSPECS are probably setup such that an autopilot may be used in lieu of a SIC for pax ops. That does not mean that an SIC cannot be used. It just means if your company chooses to operate with the autopilot instead of the SIC, they're allowed to. They do NOT have to operate without the SIC though. Here's a link to the Letter of Authorization from the FAA Chief Counsel's office:
http://forums.jetcareers.com/790266-post21.html

Ok, onto the manipulation of flight controls on a 135 flight:
Regardless of what (or what you think) your POI says, this is actually quite clear looking at the regs. First of all, let's look at who can manipulate the flight controls under a part 135 flight:

Sec. 135.115 - Manipulation of controls.
No pilot in command may allow any person to manipulate the flight controls of an aircraft during flight conducted under this part, nor may any person manipulate the controls during such flight unless that person is --
(a) A pilot employed by the certificate holder and qualified in the aircraft; or
(b) An authorized safety representative of the Administrator who has the permission of the pilot in command, is qualified in the aircraft, and is checking flight operations.

In your own words, you are saying your company chooses to operate 135 flights under the single pilot authorization, and that the 2nd "pilot" is not required. So in other words, you (or whoever the "SIC" is) are considered a passenger. A passenger is not permitted to manipulate the flight controls as stated in FAR 135.115 above.

I think you were a little confused and did not mean to say that you guys choose to operate under the single pilot authorization when you are sitting in the right seat. In other words, you want to be classified under 135.115(a) as a pilot employed by the company and qualified in the aircraft. So what constitutes you (the SIC) being qualified in the aircraft? This is where FAR 135.293 comes into play:

http://www.risingup.com/fars/info/part135-293-FAR.shtml

Sec. 135.293 - Initial and recurrent pilot testing requirements.

(a) No certificate holder may use a pilot, nor may any person serve as a pilot, unless, since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service, that pilot has passed a written or oral test, given by the Administrator or an authorized check pilot, on that pilot's knowledge in the following areas --
(1) The appropriate provisions of parts 61, 91, and 135 of this chapter and the operations specifications and the manual of the certificate holder;
(2) For each type of aircraft to be flown by the pilot, the aircraft powerplant, major components and systems, major appliances, performance and operating limitations, standard and emergency operating procedures, and the contents of the approved Aircraft Flight Manual or equivalent, as applicable;
(3) For each type of aircraft to be flown by the pilot, the method of determining compliance with weight and balance limitations for takeoff, landing and en route operations;
(4) Navigation and use of air navigation aids appropriate to the operation or pilot authorization, including, when applicable, instrument approach facilities and procedures;
(5) Air traffic control procedures, including IFR procedures when applicable;
(6) Meteorology in general, including the principles of frontal systems, icing, fog, thunderstorms, and windshear, and, if appropriate for the operation of the certificate holder, high altitude weather;
(7) Procedures for --
(i) Recognizing and avoiding severe weather situations;
(ii) Escaping from severe weather situations, in case of inadvertent encounters, including low-altitude windshear (except that rotorcraft pilots are not required to be tested on escaping from low-altitude windshear); and
(iii) Operating in or near thunderstorms (including best penetrating altitudes), turbulent air (including clear air turbulence), icing, hail, and other potentially hazardous meteorological conditions; and
(8) New equipment, procedures, or techniques, as appropriate.
(b) No certificate holder may use a pilot, nor may any person serve as a pilot, in any aircraft unless, since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before that service, that pilot has passed a competency check given by the Administrator or an authorized check pilot in that class of aircraft, if single-engine airplane other than turbojet, or that type of aircraft, if helicopter, multiengine airplane, or turbojet airplane, to determine the pilot's competence in practical skills and techniques in that aircraft or class of aircraft. The extent of the competency check shall be determined by the Administrator or authorized check pilot conducting the competency check. The competency check may include any of the maneuvers and procedures currently required for the original issuance of the particular pilot certificate required for the operations authorized and appropriate to the category, class and type of aircraft involved. For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to an airplane, means any one of a group of airplanes determined by the Administrator to have a similar means of propulsion, the same manufacturer, and no significantly different handling or flight characteristics. For the purposes of this paragraph, type, as to a helicopter, means a basic make and model.
(c) The instrument proficiency check required by §135.297 may be substituted for the competency check required by this section for the type of aircraft used in the check.
(d) For the purpose of this part, competent performance of a procedure or maneuver by a person to be used as a pilot requires that the pilot be the obvious master of the aircraft, with the successful outcome of the maneuver never in doubt.
(e) The Administrator or authorized check pilot certifies the competency of each pilot who passes the knowledge or flight check in the certificate holder's pilot records.
(f) Portions of a required competency check may be given in an aircraft simulator or other appropriate training device, if approved by the Administrator.

In other words, to act as a qualified pilot that can manipulate the controls under part 135, you must be given a check ride that includes an oral and practical test. This check ride must be given by the FAA or a designated check airman (usually the chief pilot has this authorization). It does not differentiate between PIC or SIC - it is REQUIRED for any pilot. This is very common knowledge in the charter world, so you better check into it.
@wrxpilot nailed it in his first post and backs it up here.
For 135 Pax Ops
1. Unless you are a required crew member, you may not touch anything.
2. Unless you have passed a 135 checkride, you are NOT a 135 crew member.
3. In ops don't require an SIC and the plane does not require an SIC, you may not log SIC time (with, apparently, some hinky exceptions for deviant operators about which I deliberately choose not to apprise myself)
4. Passing a 135 checkride is supposed to require knowledge of these regs, among other tidbits o' knowledge.
 
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