PIC requirement for ATP or rATP

RamRise

RamRise

Well-Known Member
Hey, was curious if the verbiage in 61.159 pertaining to aeronautical experience for the ATP , which states :
'250 hours of flight time as a Pilot in Command'

Suggests the time is referring to Acting as Pilot in Command and not simply PIC time (I.e. sole manipulatior and rated). The 'AS 'a pilot in command does not appear in the commercial section which instead says 100 hours OF pilot in Command flight time.

I've heard so many different opinions about this. I'm a 135 sic but logging sole manipulatior time in a column I designated (seperate from PIC as final authority column) and was under the impression that would count toward the ATP requirement , but now I'm doubting it.

1. Do I need to get a PIC to endorse the logbook where I was 'performing the duties of a PIC under the supervision of a PIC'?

2. Does solo time while exercising my student pilot certificate count ?
 
RamRise said:
Hey, was curious if the verbiage in 61.159 pertaining to aeronautical experience for the ATP , which states :
'250 hours of flight time as a Pilot in Command'

Suggests the time is referring to Acting as Pilot in Command and not simply PIC time
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It is PIC time logged in accordance with FAA logging rules. That is 100% of the official reason for logbooks. There is no provision anywhere in Part 61 for logging any other time as PIC time.
 
The numbered questions you ask are also answered in "The Universal Rule of Logging Flight Time" (FAR 61.51). If you read it and still can't figure it out, we'll all be happy to help.
 
Thanks, I've read 61.51 a million times, I'm just doubting myself now. So you're saying that the 'as a pilot in command' per the ATP requirements ,and the 'of pilot in Command time' per Commercial requirements both are met by 61.51(e)(1)(i) alone and the FAA just worded it differently for no reason ?
 
RamRise said:
Thanks, I've read 61.51 a million times, I'm just doubting myself now. So you're saying that the 'as a pilot in command' per the ATP requirements ,and the 'of pilot in Command time' per Commercial requirements both are met by 61.51(e)(1)(i) alone and the FAA just worded it differently for no reason ?
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Well, technically all the stuff that allows logging PIC under 61.51(e) rather than just (e)(1)(i), but yeah.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
Well, technically all the stuff that allows logging PIC under 61.51(e) rather than just (e)(1)(i), but yeah.
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I did some more reviewing of the topic and found a legal interpretation 'Duncan 2012' which says towards the end that basically an SIC can count SIC hours towards meeting the 250hr PIC requirement of 61.159(a)(5) as long as he was performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC.

This is completely independent from an SIC logging PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i) or 61.51(e)(1)(iv). And moreover, all three methods satisfy the 250hr Pilot in Command Requirement of the ATP certificate if I understand this correctly?
 
RamRise said:
I did some more reviewing of the topic and found a legal interpretation 'Duncan 2012' which says towards the end that basically an SIC can count SIC hours towards meeting the 250hr PIC requirement of 61.159(a)(5) as long as he was performing the duties of PIC under the supervision of a PIC.

This is completely independent from an SIC logging PIC under 61.51(e)(1)(i) or 61.51(e)(1)(iv). And moreover, all three methods satisfy the 250hr Pilot in Command Requirement of the ATP certificate if I understand this correctly?
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Anything that meets the requirements of 61.159(a) meets the requirements of 61.159(a). But make sure you read Duncan's description of what activities meet the (a)(5) requirements.
 
Can you elaborate.All I see in the interpretation is that an SIC while performing the duties of pilot in command and under the supervision of a pilot in command may count his SIC time toward meeting the requirements of 61.159(a)(5), and that it should be logged as SIC. It doesn't exactly state what the "duties of pilot in command" entails, but does mention the historical underpinnings of the rule.

In 61.51(e)(1(iv) It mentions the SIC needs to be in an approved Pilot in Command training program, which includes a laundry list of normal tasks. But this is for logging the SIC time as PIC in your logbook.

I don't think I need to do that if all I want is to count the SIC time as meeting the 61.159(a)(5) requirement, and therefore don't need to be in an approved pilot in command training program, if I understand correctly? If not, can you point me in the direction in the Duncan interpretation that discusses this specifically.
 
RamRise said:
Can you elaborate.All I see in the interpretation is that an SIC while performing the duties of pilot in command and under the supervision of a pilot in command may count his SIC time toward meeting the requirements of 61.159(a)(5), and that it should be logged as SIC. It doesn't exactly state what the "duties of pilot in command" entails, but does mention the historical underpinnings of the rule.

In 61.51(e)(1(iv) It mentions the SIC needs to be in an approved Pilot in Command training program, which includes a laundry list of normal tasks. But this is for logging the SIC time as PIC in your logbook.

I don't think I need to do that if all I want is to count the SIC time as meeting the 61.159(a)(5) requirement, and therefore don't need to be in an approved pilot in command training program, if I understand correctly? If not, can you point me in the direction in the Duncan interpretation that discusses this specifically.
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I'm pretty sure Duncan describes a number of tasks that would be part of what it would consider to be "performing the duties."

I think it's still pretty vague and don't have a good answer for you, but I would at the very least list the tasks Duncan mentions and include the name of the PIC. I'm sorry but I can't make up anything better than that, and can't even be sure it would be enough.
 
MidlifeFlyer said:
I'm pretty sure Duncan describes a number of tasks that would be part of what it would consider to be "performing the duties."

I think it's still pretty vague and don't have a good answer for you, but I would at the very least list the tasks Duncan mentions and include the name of the PIC. I'm sorry but I can't make up anything better than that, and can't even be sure it would be enough.
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Thank you for the advice
 
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