PC-12...complex endorsment question inside.

[T/O w/FSII]

Here is a question that has stumped my local fsdo, dpe, and a few cfi's...

The PC-12 has a single power lever. A complex airplane must have a "controllable pitch prop"

My thoughts are...It doesn't say WHO or WHAT controls the pitch. Also, I am controlling it when going into reverse.

Can one earn a complex endorsement in a PC-12?

Thoughts?

 

[staledog]

I think yes. I don't think you will find anyone who would argue that a PC -12 is not a complex airplane.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

No, I do not think it needs a complex endorsement. Neither do jets, or props with FADEC. The FAA has proposed changing this section to bring it in line with modern aircraft, but for the purposes of what is a controllable pitch propellor it is probably safe to go off of what the FAA says it is in the Airplane Flying Handbook.

The pilot controls the engine r.p.m. indirectly by means
of a propeller control in the cockpit, which is
connected to the governor. For maximum takeoff
power, the propeller control is moved all the way
forward to the low pitch/high r.p.m. position, and the
throttle is moved forward to the maximum allowable
manifold pressure position. To reduce power for climb
or cruise, manifold pressure is reduced to the desired
value with the throttle, and the engine r.p.m. is reduced
by moving the propeller control back toward the high
pitch/low r.p.m. position until the desired r.p.m. is
observed on the tachometer.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

I think yes. I don't think you will find anyone who would argue that a PC -12 is not a complex airplane.

Agreed.

No, I do not think it needs a complex endorsement. Neither do jets, or props with FADEC. The FAA has proposed changing this section to bring it in line with modern aircraft, but for the purposes of what is a controllable pitch propellor it is probably safe to go off of what the FAA says it is in the Airplane Flying Handbook.

Interesting. Thanks! Looks like "a propeller control in the cockpit" is the keyword.

 

[SpiraMirabilis]

With that said, I do not think any but the most anal retentive of inspectors would have a problem with a complex endorsement issued via training in a PC-12.

 

[ProudPilot]

Cirrus is like that, and it is not a complex airplane. Granted it also has fixed gear, but the FSDO discussed that with us. You have to have some input into the RPM. Basically the endorsement is so that you don't blow up the engine through being an idiot. Since the lever does not allow you to control propeller speed directly, you have the same chance of screwing the engine as you did in a C172, so it's not complex. Better system, yes, not complex.

 

[z987k]

Cirrus is like that, and it is not a complex airplane. Granted it also has fixed gear, but the FSDO discussed that with us. You have to have some input into the RPM. Basically the endorsement is so that you don't blow up the engine through being an idiot. Since the lever does not allow you to control propeller speed directly, you have the same chance of screwing the engine as you did in a C172, so it's not complex. Better system, yes, not complex.

Well you could also have an airplane with the blue lever and fixed gear or no flaps and it still wouldn't be complex. So the purpose is not just the prop.

 

[ProudPilot]

Well you could also have an airplane with the blue lever and fixed gear or no flaps and it still wouldn't be complex. So the purpose is not just the prop.

Yes, that is correct, and the cirrus was just a topic for the prop, but we had discussed that with the FSDO when he showed up.

However, on that front, each FSDO may have differing opinions. Mileage may vary.

 

[gotWXdagain]

Didn't the new changes to part 61 put FADEC airplanes in the complex category?

 

[Cessnaflyer]

PC-12 is complex

61.1.b.(3) Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control.

 

[Boris Badenov]

Plus, with the PC-12, you have to constantly go in and out of beta to avoid the RED BAND, so you are, in fact, controlling the prop. Quite often, it turns out. On the ground.

 

[Houston]

With that said, I do not think any but the most anal retentive of inspectors would have a problem with a complex endorsement issued via training in a PC-12.

Perhaps, but that is not what a pilot needs to worry about. It is after an accident when the pilot's records are torn apart in detail by lawyers and insurance companies, none of whom have the pilot's best interest at heart, that such a question becomes critical. The worst that the FAA could do to a pilot is small potatoes compared to what can happen elsewhere.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

[quote="Cessnaflyer, post: 1880307, member: 5456"]PC-12 is complex

61.1.b.(3) Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control.[/quote]

Thanks, I knew about the fadec, but did not know it was worded like this.

I think the complex will be given in a 182RG just to be on the safe side, although another fsdo office told me today a PC-12 is, in fact, complex. Duh.

Just another one of those things.

Perhaps, but that is not what a pilot needs to worry about. It is after an accident when the pilot's records are torn apart in detail by lawyers and insurance companies, none of whom have the pilot's best interest at heart, that such a question becomes critical. The worst that the FAA could do to a pilot is small potatoes compared to what can happen elsewhere.

I felt this way too, I am glad people understood why I was asking such a nit picking question. Thanks guys.

 

[squeezemylemon]

my dream plane,i want a job on this plane.

 

[T/O w/FSII]

my dream plane,i want a job on this plane.

She's quite the machine

 

[inigo88]

Boris beat me to it, but any time you retard the power lever into beta or reverse on a turboprop airplane - you're controlling propeller pitch! It's a confusing idea that the power lever controls prop pitch in the lower range and switches over to controlling the fuel control unit in the upper range (especially when you also have a prop lever), but that's the way it is. To say a turboprop airplane isn't controllable pitch - FADEC or not - fundamentally ignores how a turboprop works. Just splitting hairs, but if the FAA wanted the complex endorsement to count on airplanes with blue handles they should just say so.

 

[z987k]

my dream plane,i want a job on this plane.

Yep.... if it had another one of those spiny things. Even though it's turbine, single engine just doesn't inspire confidence in the really nasty stuff. I think it makes a great personal or corporate airplane, where if we don't go for some reason, it's not the end of the world.

 

[squeezemylemon]

i feel safer on pratt 145 than on a twin piston.flew imc on the 208 in rain and snow from t off to landing,and engine did nt say anyyhing.

once u taste the mono turbine,u will change your mind.

if you got a job for me,i m your man.

 

[Mark815]

my dream plane,i want a job on this plane.

It's not the biggest or the fastest, but it's a FUN airplane to fly.

 

[ackeight]

PC-12 is complex

61.1.b.(3) Complex airplane means an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller, including airplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller, including seaplanes equipped with an engine control system consisting of a digital computer and associated accessories for controlling the engine and propeller, such as a full authority digital engine control.

The pc12 does not have a digital control over the propeller. So according to the FAAs wording it is not complex. A mechanical governor holds 1700rpm in flight and a rod for beta overrides and reverses the prop. I still think its just as complex as the next variable pitch prop.