Payscales

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Ok so I was in my usual thinking room worshipping a god that deals with a lot of my crap when I came up with this..... alright, howabout pay based on flight hours (experience), longevity, equipment, seat, etc, all blended together. IE # of total hours. I think it's real feasible if thought through by unions. A guy with 500 hours isn't worth as much as a guy with 1500 hours. Of course you'd have to have the union involved in the hiring guidelines but that could reward guys that come to a company as FOs with a better starting pay. Just a thought:panic:
 

shinysideup

New Member
Keep thinking, keep trying. This one has been talked about for a long time, and has some issues. First of all being what type of aircraft (747 or 152), international or domestic, southwest clear sky or New England ice and fog. Time in an airplane just gets you in the door, its how you present yourself that gets you a job, and (outside of union contracts) how well you bargain for yourself, that your pay is determined.

This hopefully starts a good discussion.

Personally I would prefer a pure corporate style of compensation. Very similar to buying a car. You interview, you discuss what you can bring to the company, you discuss what the company can do for you. Once you have determined that you and the company could be a good fit, then you bargain with each other. If the terms of employment are up to the needs and demands of your lifestyle and personal family situation ensuring a QOL that you are comfortable with, take the job. If they fall short, either pass on the job all together or go back to the bargaining table.

Either way you look at it; union, with a collective bargaining agreement, or personal bargaining between you and your superiors, someone has to fight for you.

Keep the ideas coming, cause you might just come up with one that has not been tried yet, and might just work.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
Personally I would prefer a pure corporate style of compensation. Very similar to buying a car. You interview, you discuss what you can bring to the company, you discuss what the company can do for you. Once you have determined that you and the company could be a good fit, then you bargain with each other. If the terms of employment are up to the needs and demands of your lifestyle and personal family situation ensuring a QOL that you are comfortable with, take the job. If they fall short, either pass on the job all together or go back to the bargaining table.
The problem is that people are willing to fly jets for less than nothing (PFT). You leave yourself very little bargaining room if the guy in front of you just offered to work for nothing.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
The problem is that people are willing to fly jets for less than nothing (PFT). You leave yourself very little bargaining room if the guy in front of you just offered to work for nothing.
Man with disturbing avatar makes a good point.

If it went the self-bargaining way, all the regional FOs would be flying for free since they'd be "upgrading soon anyway." Those of us that value our time and skills would be left on the street since we got low-balled. Nothing would change until an airplane got bent and passenger lives lost due to lack of experience.
 

JDMcFly

New Member
Man with disturbing avatar makes a good point.

If it went the self-bargaining way, all the regional FOs would be flying for free since they'd be "upgrading soon anyway." Those of us that value our time and skills would be left on the street since we got low-balled. Nothing would change until an airplane got bent and passenger lives lost due to lack of experience.
Come on, we can do better than that. At my company, Captains work for free too. After all, that heavy metal job is just around the corner with the right number of hours, right? All the TPIC you could want, for free!
 

Velocipede

New Member
The problem is that people are willing to fly jets for less than nothing (PFT). You leave yourself very little bargaining room if the guy in front of you just offered to work for nothing.
EXACTLY my point. And when guys are willing to go to work for non-Union carriers for 2/3rds the pay, the SAME thing happens.

It also encourages YOUR management to use whatever tactics they can to lower YOUR payrate to the non-Union level. Need an example? UAL and USAir used the bankruptcy court to drop their narrowbody pay to jetBlue levels.

Now along comes Allegiant and Virgin lowering the bar further. How can they? Because they can get guys to fly the left seat of an MD-80 or an A320 for $95 - $110 an hour.

Man with disturbing avatar makes a good point.
Glad you agree with him. Because YOU are the guy crowing about how good Allegiant would be for you on another thread. Better rethink your position on one of these threads or the other or else one might think you're a hypocrite.

Those of us that value our time and skills would be left on the street since we got low-balled.
Thank you for making my point. Now refresh my memory about how great Allegiant would be for you because you'd accept substandard pay to live in LAS. Because the day you accept employment there, YOU are doing the lowballing, my friend.
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Well the purpose of the union could be twofold in a situation where your experience equals your payrate at the company. It could provide advice for you on what your experience should pay at what seat you are applying for (like a hiring firm), and provide contract rules on how many each type of person the company could hire. I would also say that there should be a rule for public disclosure of the hiring practices... stating that guys who make the "$20/hr" are the "least experienced" hires. There needs to be a way of discouraging only hiring inexperienced people under a system that rewards starting pay and your continued advances based on experience (hours). Instead of years, if you work for the company for 500 hours, your pay goes up 4 or 5 bucks an hour.

Applicant A has 500 hours total at the door, so he sees $20/hr
Applicant B has 1500 hours total at the door, so he begins with $35/hr (just as an example). This could help discourage applicant A because of course he wants to make the $35 an hour, and instead of us all being disappointed in a union contract with crap pay, he'll know he's getting the shaft and could be making such and such per hour if he had come with more experience (hours).

I'm oversimplifying it because I'm purely basing it upon hours in the example and using fairly crap pay rates (and not telling you what airframe it's for), but if we could blend the pay like that....
 

ChrisH

Well-Known Member
I had an idea of a new way the unions could approach pay, but not real sure how well it would go over. Instead of pay being based on a per hour basis, have it instead be a salary, that is based on a formula, similiar to now, but based on per seat. Do away with hourly rates, and bring in a salary.

For example, you would negotiate the per seat pay, which would then be plugged into a formula, to derive a salary, doing away with the need to negotiate rates for each and every year, and per hour. You just pay the pilot a flat salary. Lets say it is negotiated to $1.75/ per seat. A formula something along the lines of:

($1.75 per seat)*(50 seats)*(75 hours)*(12 months) = ~$79K

You would base the FO rate off of 60% of the captains rates, thus the FO in the above situation would make ~$47K.

If it were a 70 seat airplane, the salary would jump to ~$110K for captain, and ~$66K for the FO, based on the formula.

You could also negotiate longevity raises, such that for every 5 years of service, you receive a 10% raise, so the scale would look something like this.

ABC AIRLINES:

EMB 145/ CRJ2:

CA Year 1-5: $79,000
FO Year 1-5: $47,000

CA Year 5-10: $87,000
FO Year 5-10: $52,000

EMB 170/ CR7/ Q400:

CA Year 1-5: $110,000
FO Year 1-5: $66,000

CA Year 5-10: $121,000
FO Year 5-10: $73,000
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
I had an idea of a new way the unions could approach pay, but not real sure how well it would go over. Instead of pay being based on a per hour basis, have it instead be a salary, that is based on a formula, similiar to now, but based on per seat. Do away with hourly rates, and bring in a salary.

For example, you would negotiate the per seat pay, which would then be plugged into a formula, to derive a salary, doing away with the need to negotiate rates for each and every year, and per hour. You just pay the pilot a flat salary. Lets say it is negotiated to $1.75/ per seat. A formula something along the lines of:

($1.75 per seat)*(50 seats)*(75 hours)*(12 months) = ~$79K

You would base the FO rate off of 60% of the captains rates, thus the FO in the above situation would make ~$47K.

If it were a 70 seat airplane, the salary would jump to ~$110K for captain, and ~$66K for the FO, based on the formula.

You could also negotiate longevity raises, such that for every 5 years of service, you receive a 10% raise, so the scale would look something like this.

ABC AIRLINES:

EMB 145/ CRJ2:

CA Year 1-5: $79,000
FO Year 1-5: $47,000

CA Year 5-10: $87,000
FO Year 5-10: $52,000

EMB 170/ CR7/ Q400:

CA Year 1-5: $110,000
FO Year 1-5: $66,000

CA Year 5-10: $121,000
FO Year 5-10: $73,000
That could work.... but I'd be wary of going 5 years without a raise. COLA would have to be factored in there as well. Also, salary could work well, esp. for those who fly under the "guarantee". Any over guarantee flying would be paid at a premium rate as well.
 

Wolfy

Well-Known Member
The problem I see with the hour structure is more experienced people pricing themselves out of a job.
 

kellwolf

Piece of Trash
Velocipede said:
Glad you agree with him. Because YOU are the guy crowing about how good Allegiant would be for you on another thread. Better rethink your position on one of these threads or the other or else one might think you're a hypocrite.



Thank you for making my point. Now refresh my memory about how great Allegiant would be for you because you'd accept substandard pay to live in LAS. Because the day you accept employment there, YOU are doing the lowballing, my friend.

Sigh. It's all about the money, huh? QoL matters nothing. There's a difference b/w doing something for a little less b/c it nets you more family time and doing something for free. Or do you actually have a price on time at home with your family? Get over yourself.

I guess I value QoL a little more than you. In fact, I'll say it right now. I'm willing to take less of a pay raise here at PCL in exchange for better QoL issues. How is that different than going to Allegiant other than there's no union at Allegiant? Am I "selling out" my fellow Pinnacle pilots b/c I'd rather have more days off at home instead of an extra $5/hr?
 

SpiceWeasel

Tre Kronor
Sigh. It's all about the money, huh? QoL matters nothing. There's a difference b/w doing something for a little less b/c it nets you more family time and doing something for free. Or do you actually have a price on time at home with your family? Get over yourself.

I guess I value QoL a little more than you. In fact, I'll say it right now. I'm willing to take less of a pay raise here at PCL in exchange for better QoL issues. How is that different than going to Allegiant other than there's no union at Allegiant? Am I "selling out" my fellow Pinnacle pilots b/c I'd rather have more days off at home instead of an extra $5/hr?

Yes. I hate you now. You'll be getting mean notes in your vfile. :sarcasm:

:D
 

shinysideup

New Member
The problem is that people are willing to fly jets for less than nothing (PFT). You leave yourself very little bargaining room if the guy in front of you just offered to work for nothing.
A monkey can log time, and anyone with the correct amount of time can get an entry level position. And as far as I am concerned any company who partakes in shady operations forsaking safety and would hire someone willing to work for nothing, is not a company I would ever consider working for.

My "bargaining room" is not that I can fly an airplane as well as the next pilot, but the fact I can do the "rest" of the job better than anyone else.
 

shinysideup

New Member
EXACTLY my point. And when guys are willing to go to work for non-Union carriers for 2/3rds the pay, the SAME thing happens.

It also encourages YOUR management to use whatever tactics they can to lower YOUR payrate to the non-Union level. Need an example? UAL and USAir used the bankruptcy court to drop their narrowbody pay to jetBlue levels.

Now along comes Allegiant and Virgin lowering the bar further. How can they? Because they can get guys to fly the left seat of an MD-80 or an A320 for $95 - $110 an hour.



Glad you agree with him. Because YOU are the guy crowing about how good Allegiant would be for you on another thread. Better rethink your position on one of these threads or the other or else one might think you're a hypocrite.



Thank you for making my point. Now refresh my memory about how great Allegiant would be for you because you'd accept substandard pay to live in LAS. Because the day you accept employment there, YOU are doing the lowballing, my friend.
I bet your a blast to be on the road with...do me a favor stay on the 121 side.
 

shinysideup

New Member
The problem I see with the hour structure is more experienced people pricing themselves out of a job.
Not if you are worth it. My only point is: You are worth what someone will pay you. End of story. Keep yourself professional, and continue to be the best at what you do. If you seem to only find those jobs that have very little to offer, stop grumbling about the company you are working for and think inward first. There may be a good reason you cannot land those ideal jobs.
 

splash

your social justice comic center
Pay based on flight time, no! I believe we should all stop logging flight time after our commercial for the best of this industry as pilots. We are commercial pilots. I can't think of any other occupation of the top of my head with this hour BS. If a pilot is in a accident and saves his arse because the plane crapped out does that count as bonus points for him or does it put him at high risk? Like any occupation it should be about how long you have been in the field, how much effort you have put into it, and what you STILL know (haha! BFR's are simple jokes). Think about it this way... Take a crop duster that is logging time with more than 100 control inputs/hour. Then think about the 135 pilot that makes an average of 15 control inputs/hour in that 4 hour leg. More IFR to the 135 pilot but more hands on for the duster.

Come on, we all know of thousand hour + pilots that either ran out of luck or there mega number of hours got the best of them. I also think this is a crazy way of hiring. I believe the more styles of flying you have experienced the more pay you should get because you become a well rounded pilot. We should be payed based on our actions more than our nose picking time. Who am I though?
 

Wolfy

Well-Known Member
Not if you are worth it. My only point is: You are worth what someone will pay you. End of story. Keep yourself professional, and continue to be the best at what you do. If you seem to only find those jobs that have very little to offer, stop grumbling about the company you are working for and think inward first. There may be a good reason you cannot land those ideal jobs.
That's fine on a smaller scale and I agree with it. Just imagine someone with 2500TT and the airline hiring market takes a dive. The regional airline he's been at for 4 years goes under. He's jobless for a while, then hiring starts again. The majors are so backed up with more qualified applications, he can't get a job there. The regionals have a stack of resumes with 250-1500TT. To cut costs, they hire people with an average of 1000 hours. He could have previously taken a pay and ego hit and started over, instead he has no job at all. He can't work for less than the pay scale for the time he has, but he can't find anyone to pay him that.
 

SlumTodd_Millionaire

Evil Landlord Capitalist
Why are we trying to reinvent the wheel? I think the current system works just fine. Besides, anytime you want to force a paradigm shift in how pay is calculated, you waste a lot of bargaining leverage not on the money, but on the system itself. Management doesn't like change, and they'll make you waste a lot of leverage to get it.
 
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