Passed CFI Initial

AZ Flyer

New Member
After being out of flying due to my job for just over 5 years, I decided to get back in it in 2014 and finish up what i started years ago.

To break down the entire process for those interested, I trained in Tucson. I can't thank the school enough for their help, all of their instructors are top notch, and i will definitely go back to them for my future ratings. They are great to work with.

Anyway, I contacted the Scottsdale FSDO in late October to schedule and heard back about a week later. It was the DPE who was assigned to me due to the backup in the Scottsdale FSDO and the fact I requested the ride to be in Tucson. We scheduled the ride for the first week of December, fee was $1200.

Day started at 7 with the get-to-know you and small talk portion, and the explanation at how many people fail this on their first attempt. Then I was informed about the Vegas FSDO getting in trouble for giving out to many CFI certificates on the first attempt. This wasn't fun to hear, and not the best for my confidence either.

The oral was straight and to the point, he told me all he wanted was accurate and correct answers. He didn't care if I had to go to the library and find an answer, I was to use any and all resources to find answers. He also told me that as soon as I taught the wrong info, it would be over. Teaching wrong information to him was an automatic bust, and i was to stay within the scenario at all times.

Once the oral started, it was pretty smooth. It was about 6 hours in length, including a "working" lunch at the nearby restaurant. I was very nervous about the oral, but once it started I calmed down and never really had any issues or trouble.

After the oral, it was on to the pre-flight which included us laying on our backs under the plane for about 15 talking about landing gear systems, brakes, tires, etc. With questions, teaching, and other discussion, the pre-flight lasted about an hour.

We took a break after the pre-flight so he could make a phone call. Once he returned, he said one more question before we fly. He asked me a question regarding the engine that I didn't know. I said I don't know (didn't want to teach the wrong information). I said I would need to look it up, he then said "Come on, I know you know this." I said I didn't know, he said "yes you do, at least give it a shot." So i guessed, he asked if it was my final answer, I said yes and was informed I had just failed for teaching the wrong information. It was my fault, I shouldn't have taken the bait and fell out of the scenario. So we did the paperwork, rescheduled, and he informed me that at the next appointment all we would be doing is flying, no more oral, and then he headed home.

The flight ended up taking place last week. He showed up, collected another $600 from me, and we got in the plane. A few commercial maneuvers, some private stuff, one emergency procedure and it was over. The flight was 1.8, but seemed like it was about 15 minutes. No trouble at all.

All in all, it was a great experience to train and get this rating. I know a lot of people stress out over the CFI, but looking back at it, you already know everything, now you just have to pass your knowledge to someone else. The flying is still the same, and the information is exactly what you learn as a private and commercial student.

I'm glad to answer any questions or pass on information if anyone would like. Just PM me. Happy New Year everyone!
 
We took a break after the pre-flight so he could make a phone call. Once he returned, he said one more question before we fly. He asked me a question regarding the engine that I didn't know. I said I don't know (didn't want to teach the wrong information). I said I would need to look it up, he then said "Come on, I know you know this." I said I didn't know, he said "yes you do, at least give it a shot." So i guessed, he asked if it was my final answer, I said yes and was informed I had just failed for teaching the wrong information.

What was the question about the engine? And $1,800 for a checkride? wow...
 
His name was not Phil (although I have heard about him from multiple people), my guy was not from around Tucson, he is one of the few DPE's the Scottsdale FSDO gives authority to for CFI initials (or so he told me). The question was what would happen if the gear on the starter that starts spinning the prop got stuck and didn't disengage the planetary gear after the engine started? I wasn't sure if it would just over spin and break the starter, if it would prevent max RPM which you would find on the run-up, or if it was built to just be forced back into the housing after the engine started . I told him that most automatically are spun right back into their casing once the engine is started and are built to not get stuck, and that was what this plane had. He told me I was wrong, and that ended the day.
I got a mechanic after he left and went over everything. The mechanic actually agreed with me and said my answer was good for a pilot, and the scenario laid out was about a one in a million possibility, but it ultimately it wasn't good enough for the examiner. Now for the rest of my life I will always remember what that little gear is when I do my pre-flights, it has been waving at me every pre-flight since.
 
That's a pretty specific engine question. I would've failed it on my CFI initial if I got asked that question...and I passed my CFI initial. Regardless...Congrats!!
 
Standardization seems to be a big thing on CFI Certs, they may last longer and be tougher, but you get a lot of variation across the board. At least after a few 000 dual everyone should be at the same level.

You going to teach in PHX?
 
Congrats on passing, but man I paid $700 a few weeks ago for my CFI initial and I thought that was pricey! I'm just amazed at the cost
 
$1800 is insane... these guys are getting loaded off the backs of the new and poorer generation of pilots. No wonder GA is in such trouble, that fee, and the $600 extra is infuriating.
 
I remember paying $350 I think for PPL, Most recently $800 CFII Intial, $700 CFI Add-on ($300 retest) and $500 MEI Add-on so a total of $2.3k. I dont mind flying with the FSDO but as in other posts, they may not have the capacity.

Alex.
 
You going to teach in PHX?[/QUOTE]

I'm debating it, I like flying in Tucson simply because the practice areas are quiet, I have never had any issues with other aircraft almost flying into me. Marana, Tucson, and Ryan are great for training, although Marana can get pretty busy on the weekends. Plus, my day job/home are closer to Tucson. In my opinion, the Tucson area is great for training, especially beginners, and Phoenix is great for instructing, you get a lot of experience with all the different airspace and heavy volume. Some people love flying/training in Phoenix, and others hate it.

As far as the DPE cost, it was unexpected, and a lot in my opinion. Had I been younger without the job I have now, I would have struggled to come up with it. I would have flown with the feds, but I would have had to wait several months. Plus, I would have had to fly up to that area at least once or twice to get familiar with the practice areas around the FSDO, and that wouldn't have been cheap either. I wish when it comes to the feds deferring you to a DPE for a ride, they had some cap on what you could be charged. My last checkride in 2008 was $350 for my Commercial rating. The guy i did my spin training with was a retired DPE, and he said he charged $600 for the initial CFI because it was basically the equivalent of 2 checkrides, which makes sense to me.
 
Im sorry my friend but you got ripped. Completely unreasonable. Don't let this happen again to you. Congrats though, the hard work is over!
 
Nice, sensible thinking. Will have to check out TUS next time I'm there, be interested to see who you work for in the end :)
 
I totally understand I got ripped, but ultimately, there was nothing I could do about it. Had I said no and refused to pay, I would have gone through a process of having to wait for the FSDO( several month wait right now), then re-doing my oral exam, and flying. While I was waiting for my checkride, I would have spent a good amount renting the plane and flying to stay sharp. So at the end of the day, it was easier to just pay him and get the certificate now.

As for who I work for, I will probably start in Tucson since it works best for my current job.
 
One factor leading to increased costs for checkrides may be the fewer number of people taking checkrides. For example, maybe DPEs that used to do 20 checkrides a month at $300 a ride are now doing 10 checkrides a month, but still trying to keep their income steady, so they charge more and that same ride now costs $600 so the DPE still makes his money. And more than likely, if the number of students goes back up, leading to number of checkrides increasing, the price is not going to go back down. Now that pilots are used to paying $600 or more per checkride, DPEs are probably not going to go back to $300 rides.

I would bet a DPE known for being extra tough who gets few applicants because of it now has to increase his fees too.

$1800 does seem excessive. DPE out to make a buck instead of provide a service.

I once used a DPE who agreed to drive 60 miles to our airport to do a ride for a student for $400 in a 172, which is not too bad of a price. When the day came for the checkride, instead of driving, the DPE flew his personally owned Cirrus over instead and tried to charge the student an additional cost for flying the Cirrus to meet the student at our airport. Then when the student failed the oral (nerves/stress, started answering/guessing without thinking and digging a hole), the guy wanted to charge the student a half fee ($200) for a recheck (pretty normal, pretty fair), and then tried again to add a fee for flying his Cirrus around for the pending recheck. Really pissed me off that the DPE was that way with trying to stick costs on the student instead of driving 60 miles as advertised and agreed to beforehand. And before he left our airport the DPE had the gall to give me some business cards to put around the airport to refer more business his way.

In the end, the student paid the $400 for the first attempt, and then gave up on flying. The DPE never got a dime of business from our school again.

Edit: typo
 
I had my CFI examination done with an FAA Inspector from Minneapolis FSDO few years ago.

I did one bloody full day of oral from morning (before sunrise) until evening (sunset). Long hours of questioning! Endless of presentation! Life was very miserable. After lunch break, the FBI interrogation went on. I am no kidding!

On the next day, I did 3.2 hours of flying. The first portion was an hour plus flying in non-complex. After lunch, continued with complex airplane. I remember it was close to 4pm after the checkride. By the time we were done with with IACRA e-filing, it is close to 5.30pm.

At the end of the day, examination was free. No fun at all. I suggest be serious with those guys working with Minneapolis FSDO if anybody wants to get a free but super tough CFI checkride from them.
 
@cadbury I recently did my CFI with MSP FSDO and I had quite the opposite experience. The oral was approximately 6 hours and the check ride was about 1.8. The examination started around 8 and I was on my way home at 5. I guess it all depends on who you get assigned though.
 
As everyone else has said you got screwed. I would have understood it more if it was something a CFI should know. But that was just obscenly obscure. However I wonder if it would have been possible to do the following:

1. Enlist the aid of one of the mechanics on field and explain the answer. He said at the start that you could use any resource. And in the real world if I student blindsides you with a question like that a mechanic might help.

2. If not being able to use a mechanic state that you need to do more research on the subject. If he is really wanting to push back I'd try to see if it's possible to reschedule once you have the answer. Reason why it might work is that again in the real world I'm sure there are questions you will have to do more digging on.
 
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