Part 91 cross country

RICHARD5

Well-Known Member
Today a very high time pilot told me a round trip of over 50 nm from Aprt A and back to Aprt A without a landing anywhere else can be logged as cross country. Man that was funny.

EDIT: the context was a flight NOT for the purpose of a rating.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Today a very high time pilot told me a round trip of over 50 nm from Aprt A and back to Aprt A without a landing anywhere else can be logged as cross country.
It can.

The three 61.1 definitions of "cross country" are based on what you are using it for. How we log it is mostly a bookkeeping convenience geared to our expected use.
 

germb747

Well-Known Member
Flight from Point A to Point A without a Point B = No Cross Country.

Take off out of New York, fly around the world nonstop and land back in New York again = No Cross Country.
 

esa17

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but according to the part 61 requirements for the IFR ticket you don't need to actually touch the other runway, just shoot the approach...

(iii) For an instrument -- airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of --
(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems

Part 135 XC requirements are point to point, so long as you land at a point other than that of your departure its XC time.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
Correct me if I'm wrong but according to the part 61 requirements for the IFR ticket you don't need to actually touch the other runway, just shoot the approach...
I think you're mixing the requirements of cross-country flight used for purposes of attaining a rating, and a specific aeronautical experience required for the IR. The IR cross-country can be completed without actually landing at the intermediate airports (it's not listed as a requirement, only the instrument approaches are), but if you didn't land at the end of the approach it would not count towards the 50 hrs of "cross-country flight time" as PIC required for the IR.

Section 61.1: Applicability and definitions.

(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
 

tgrayson

New Member
The IR cross-country can be completed without actually landing at the intermediate airports
I don't think so. The long x-c is listed under "aeronautical experience", and what you quoted clearly says that for a cross country to count as aeronautical experience, it must include a point of landing more than 50 nm away from the point of departure.

The old FAQs agree:

QUESTION: Do landings have to be made at each airport on the cross-country flight required by § 61.65(d)(2)(iii) for the instrument rating-airplane aeronautical experience?

ANSWER: Ref. § 61.1(b)(3)(ii); Not at all of the airports, but at least one landing must be made at one of the airports, as required by § 61.1(b)(3)(ii) [and specifically subparagraph (B)].

Q&A-47
 

splash

your social justice comic center
Richard,

If I was doing air tours in AZ then I would be logging every flight as cross country regardless if I only made landings in Page.
 

Nihon_Ni

Well-Known Member
tgrayson, you are correct (as usual). I reread the requirements of the flight:

(iii) For an instrument—airplane rating, instrument training on cross- country flight procedures specific to airplanes that includes at least one cross-country flight in an airplane that is performed under IFR, and consists of—
(A) A distance of at least 250 nautical miles along airways or ATC-directed routing;
(B) An instrument approach at each airport; and
(C) Three different kinds of approaches with the use of navigation systems;

In order for it to be a cross-country flight, you have to make at least one landing.
 

CoffeeIcePapers

Well-Hung Member
I think you're mixing the requirements of cross-country flight used for purposes of attaining a rating, and a specific aeronautical experience required for the IR. The IR cross-country can be completed without actually landing at the intermediate airports (it's not listed as a requirement, only the instrument approaches are), but if you didn't land at the end of the approach it would not count towards the 50 hrs of "cross-country flight time" as PIC required for the IR.

Section 61.1: Applicability and definitions.

(3) Cross-country time means—
(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (b)(3)(ii) through (b)(3)(vi) of this section, time acquired during flight—
(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;
(B) Conducted in an aircraft;
(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and
(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
You left this part out:

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight--
(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;
(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and
(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

Notice they didn't put the word "landing" in there.
 

RICHARD5

Well-Known Member
It can.

The three 61.1 definitions of "cross country" are based on what you are using it for. How we log it is mostly a bookkeeping convenience geared to our expected use.
Ok, I guess I should have been more specific as to the nature of the flight...Part 91 tours out and back to originating aprt with no intermediate landings.
 

MidlifeFlyer

Well-Known Member
Ok, I guess I should have been more specific as to the nature of the flight...Part 91 tours out and back to originating aprt with no intermediate landings.
Those are not cross countries under any FAA definition (within 25 miles, right?). From an FAA logbook standard, they are just local flights.

But...

A lot of us log flights in ways that have nothing to do with the FAA but have some meaning to us. Ever notice that "flight training given" is =not= an official FAA logging category? People log complex and HP time for rental and insurance reasons. I log "mountain flights" so I can refer to my level of mountain experience. I can definitely see where those tour flight hours would be valuable to put on a resume or job application as commercial passenger-carrying experience.

But I don't buy spash's suggestion to log them as cross country even though they don't qualify. I don't see any regulatory problem with logging things not covered by the regs, but they should be logged in a way that it is clear from looking at your logbook without any further explanation from you that they are not being used toward the experience requirements for certificates or ratings – IOW, there is no hint of falsification. Extra columns can do the job and this is one area in which a eLog has it all over a paper one (btw, none of my extra columns, except dual given, appear in my paper log; only in my eLog).
 

USMCmech

Well-Known Member
Today a very high time pilot told me.....
An amazing thing about "very high time pilots", they are quite often wrong on some things. Numbers in a logbook do not automaticly equal wisdom or even flying skill.

Supose said VHTP learned to fly in the USAF, flew tankers for a long time, went straight to United, and flew long haul flights overseas untill he retired at 60. That man is a fine human being, and a great pilot I'm sure. But a freshly minted CFI may in fact know much more about pt 61 and 91 than Capt VHTP. Mr VHTP may know nothing about flying a small piston engined airplane whatsoever.

Just because someone flew a 747 dosen't make them knowledgable about everything in aviation.

More than a few myths and OWTs have resulted from this phenomon.
 
Top