I am a private instrument pilot with 123.0 hours, 68.8 PIC, and 101.3 flight instruction. I have started a part 141 commercial training program. I have done a couple cross countries of 100nm or more and got the 10 hours of complex. My instructor has told me that he now thinks it would be better to do my comm. training part 61. It would require 60 more hours of total time, but he said it would be more cost effective because of the cross country requirements and dual received training under part 141 since there is a 120 hour dual requirement. Is it true that this means 120 hours of total dual time, or just 120 hours in the commercial training program. that seems like a pretty ridiculous requirement. I have asked a couple of other CFI's and have heard differing opinions on what i should do. What do you guys think? thanks for any advice!
part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinions..
- Thread starter b17
- Start date
CoffeeIcePapers
Well-Hung Member
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
120 hours = 55 dual and 65 solo, but individual schools can get different requirements. It is whatever is in their syllabus.
120 hours = 55 dual and 65 solo, but individual schools can get different requirements. It is whatever is in their syllabus.
Bernoulli Fan
Controller
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
This. Do the math to see if the 141 syllabus required hours are more or less expensive than the 127 hours you have left part 61 (assuming you've met the other commercial requirements).
This. Do the math to see if the 141 syllabus required hours are more or less expensive than the 127 hours you have left part 61 (assuming you've met the other commercial requirements).
elmetal
Ain't nobody got time for that
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
Not to mention: Man you've got 123 hours and only 22 in the plane by yourself?
Ditch the 141 and go get some real PIC as you build for a part 61. Like others have said, you can use a sim also.
You can build up to like 230-240 and then go fly the complex and you're set.
Not to mention: Man you've got 123 hours and only 22 in the plane by yourself?
Ditch the 141 and go get some real PIC as you build for a part 61. Like others have said, you can use a sim also.
You can build up to like 230-240 and then go fly the complex and you're set.
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
And you can get a glider commercial at 200 TT, and CFI-G... Log the last 50 you need as dual given and get paid ~$1,000 in the process...
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
How many hours TT did you have when you started your 141 commercial syllabus?
That answer is typically the sole reason why I would send one student down one track and the next down the other.
Yeah. I don't know what school you are going to but if you are going to a small one that swings back and forth between 61 and 141, there is a good chance the instructor doesn't know what he is talking about or you miss heard him. 120 hours dual impossible? No Likely? No
How many hours TT did you have when you started your 141 commercial syllabus?
That answer is typically the sole reason why I would send one student down one track and the next down the other.
Fly_Unity
Well-Known Member
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
I guess it depends on the School.
Our 141 program is:
Private = 35 hours
Instrument = 35
Commercial = 120
If you do the Private and Instrument in the Minimum amount of time then total = 190
One of our competitors 141 program had a neat idea and rewrote their syllabi and got it approved so that its:
Private 60 hours
Instrument 60 hours
Commercial is 70 hours which is much more reasonable to get it done in 190 hours.
I guess it depends on the School.
Our 141 program is:
Private = 35 hours
Instrument = 35
Commercial = 120
If you do the Private and Instrument in the Minimum amount of time then total = 190
One of our competitors 141 program had a neat idea and rewrote their syllabi and got it approved so that its:
Private 60 hours
Instrument 60 hours
Commercial is 70 hours which is much more reasonable to get it done in 190 hours.
Douglas
Old School KSUX
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
That is a good idea.
---
If we had a student go through the 141 pvt/inst at the min times then did x hours of joy rides with family and friends, I'd then suggest 61 commercial to my students.
That is a good idea.
---
If we had a student go through the 141 pvt/inst at the min times then did x hours of joy rides with family and friends, I'd then suggest 61 commercial to my students.
Nihon_Ni
Well-Known Member
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
This is true, but since you're already an instrument rated pilot it's not likely to be cost effective for you if you look at it holistically. It will be cheaper means of qualifying for the CPL, but I don't think it will be better in the end. Since you'll need to pay a CFI to hold your hand for those 50 hrs, you could probably get 15-20 flight hours of solo time for the same price, depending on what your school charges. (At my school you could get 23.3 hrs solo in our C-172P for the price of 50 hrs dual in our PI-135.) Simulator time is good for meeting mins on certificates, but flight time is good for everything. Unless you have a good deal on dual simulator time (read "free"), I suggest you focus on flight time. Even safety pilot time is better than simulator time, which you could probably do for ~80% of the cost of dual simulator. (YMMV)
However, looking at your flight times I'd say you definitely need some more single pilot experience. If I was in your shoes, I'd focus my flight budget at more single pilot PIC time before I tried to get hired as a commercial pilot who has barely flown without a CFI on board. It would suck to have to buy 50 hrs of solo flight time after you get your CPL simply because no one will hire you with the times you have. Sit down and come up with a plan to make the next 50 hrs count. Get a glider rating, take friends our for $100 hamburgers, travel for the weekend, hit every pancake breakfast in your state, go to Sun 'n' Fun -- whatever you want, just get the best pilot experience you can with the budget you have.
This is true, but since you're already an instrument rated pilot it's not likely to be cost effective for you if you look at it holistically. It will be cheaper means of qualifying for the CPL, but I don't think it will be better in the end. Since you'll need to pay a CFI to hold your hand for those 50 hrs, you could probably get 15-20 flight hours of solo time for the same price, depending on what your school charges. (At my school you could get 23.3 hrs solo in our C-172P for the price of 50 hrs dual in our PI-135.) Simulator time is good for meeting mins on certificates, but flight time is good for everything. Unless you have a good deal on dual simulator time (read "free"), I suggest you focus on flight time. Even safety pilot time is better than simulator time, which you could probably do for ~80% of the cost of dual simulator. (YMMV)
However, looking at your flight times I'd say you definitely need some more single pilot experience. If I was in your shoes, I'd focus my flight budget at more single pilot PIC time before I tried to get hired as a commercial pilot who has barely flown without a CFI on board. It would suck to have to buy 50 hrs of solo flight time after you get your CPL simply because no one will hire you with the times you have. Sit down and come up with a plan to make the next 50 hrs count. Get a glider rating, take friends our for $100 hamburgers, travel for the weekend, hit every pancake breakfast in your state, go to Sun 'n' Fun -- whatever you want, just get the best pilot experience you can with the budget you have.
Mike H
Well-Known Member
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
I can't imagine spending that kind of time in a sim of any kind.
I can't imagine spending that kind of time in a sim of any kind.
JustinA
Well-Known Member
Re: part 141 vs part 61 commercial, lots of differing opinio
Finally, a flight school with common sense.
Finally, a flight school with common sense.
maniago
New Member
Noone answered B17s question. So to set the record straight for anyone else who comes here (as I'm in the same boat, and also got a whole lot of different answers) I went straight to the FAA with the question. They sent me to my FSDO (duh, should have known) and called them on the phone. The answer is: the 120 training hours in Appendix D to part 141 section 4.a.1 are NEW HOURS TO YOUR LOG BOOK. It doesn't matter what else you've done before.
Or to put it another way, the (section 4.a.1) 120hours minus (section 4.b.1) 55 training hours = 65 hours of boring holes in the sky that you must do no matter what. The FSDO called it "practice in the system". That makes sense if you are below the 250 hour mark and working your way up ratings, as I am. But if you been out having fun with your PPL, and then decide to go for a commercial, Part 61 is the way to go.
Also note that with 141 you have mandatory 35 hrs gnd at whatever that costs. I worked the whole thing out to be about $20K going 141, and about 10k going 61 for me. Unless you are using GI BILL, then 141 is your only choice.
Finally thanks to the guys above who mentioned the sailplane way to build hours. Its 100 flights to get your commercial glider - probably not realistic, but basic glider-addon is way less, and I'm checking on it. Hope it works out. Ought to make me a better stick and rudder guy, not to mention engine out!
Or to put it another way, the (section 4.a.1) 120hours minus (section 4.b.1) 55 training hours = 65 hours of boring holes in the sky that you must do no matter what. The FSDO called it "practice in the system". That makes sense if you are below the 250 hour mark and working your way up ratings, as I am. But if you been out having fun with your PPL, and then decide to go for a commercial, Part 61 is the way to go.
Also note that with 141 you have mandatory 35 hrs gnd at whatever that costs. I worked the whole thing out to be about $20K going 141, and about 10k going 61 for me. Unless you are using GI BILL, then 141 is your only choice.
Finally thanks to the guys above who mentioned the sailplane way to build hours. Its 100 flights to get your commercial glider - probably not realistic, but basic glider-addon is way less, and I'm checking on it. Hope it works out. Ought to make me a better stick and rudder guy, not to mention engine out!
drunkenbeagle
Gang Member
It is 100 flight glider OR 200 TT fixed wing, so if you are close to 200 hours, it isn't that far off.