Part 135 Duty Time
- Thread starter Jdehawk
- Start date
Everything I'll talk about is regarding unscheduled or "on demand" ops.
-mini
- The big concern is "rest", not "duty".
- You need to make sure you are legal with regard to rest.
- If you haven't had your rest, you cannot legally perform any duty.
- You are not at rest any time you are on duty or have the responsibility for duty should duty arise.
- This means that the practice of "you're on call...and if we didn't call you, you were off duty" isn't legal. The FAA has an opinion stating that.
- Rest has to be known to the crew member.
- You have to know you are in rest. Someone working for the certificate holder that has proper authority needs to tell you or somehow make you aware that you are being considered "at rest". They can not say "well we didn't call you yesterday, so you were at rest" when you sat around all day waiting for a call or a pager to go off.
- You need to be able to look back 24 hours from any given point and see (at some point) 10 consecutive hours of rest.
- Some will say this makes our "normal" day 14 hours of duty. I can see where they're coming from, but it isn't necessarily true. I've been "on duty" as long as 14 hours and as short as 1 hour and 45 minutes, giving me a 24 hour period of 10(rest)/1.75(duty)/(12.25)rest cycle.
- Travel not local in nature is not rest.
- It's not duty, but it isn't rest. Remember we care about rest here, not "duty".'
- If you're on an airline flight traveling half way across the country, I don't think the administrator would consider that "rest". The feds would probably say that's travel "not local in nature".
- Get your 10 hours of rest.
- Make sure you can look back 24 hours and see 10 consecutive hours of rest.
- Make sure everyone knows you're at rest when you're at rest. You do not have the legal obligation to answer a phone when you're at rest. Sometimes it's a good idea (find out what you're doing when you come out of rest), but legally (per the FAA) the certificate holder cannot force you to answer a phone when you're at rest. It's "you time".
- Make sure your commercial flying doesn't put you over the time limits (500/800/1400). That does include flight instructing, in this case.
-mini
Just do what your DO says.
I'm probably wrong, but the way I remember it is, Single-pilot, anything outside of 8 in 24, 34 in 7 is abnormal.
Anything less than 9 hours rest is abnormal.
You always need to be scheduled for at least 8 hours rest. Always.
If you take reduced rest (less than 9) you need to a longer rest period next time around. Usually that's 10 hours minimum but could be longer.
Or, just plug your times into Pilotmanager.com and do what it says.
I've worked under Part 135 Scheduled ops duty time regs, but it was for a Part 121 airline that had an opspec authorization to use 135 duty time regs.
Basically it's the same as the 121 duty time regs, except that your flight time limits are 1200hrs a year/120 hrs a month/34 hrs in 7 days. You can only fly 8 hours without a rest period and you have to have a 24 hour rest period somewhere in a 7 calendar day period.
Your normal rest period is determined by how many hours you are scheduled to fly in a 24 hour period.
In a 24 hour period if you are scheduled for
< 8 hours of flying your normal rest period is 9 hours
8 - 9 hours of flying your normal rest period is 10 hours
> 9 hours of flying your normal rest period is 11 hours
You have to look in a given 24 hours and find the required rest in that 24 hour period.
Those rest periods are reduceable to 8, 9 or 10 hours, as long as they are compensated with a 10, 11 or 12 hour rest period that starts no later than 24 hours after the start of the reduced rest period.
It doesn't specifically state it in the FARs, but because of the 8 hours minimum rest, it is implied you can be on duty for a max of 16 hours.
the 24 hours scheduled off doesn't mean a day off - I've worked 22 days straight at one point - the company gave me exactly 24 hours off - dutied off at noon and had to duty on at noon the next day.
You can still fly more than 34/7, 120/month, 1200/hrs a year though. or 8 without a rest period, by having the phrase "This flight is operated under Part 91." added onto your dispatch release. then at that point no duty time/flight time limits apply. Then the next time, you are assigned a flight under "Part 121 operated under Part 135 duty time limits" then the rules apply again within the 24 hour period (the time you flew under Part 91 then counts under Part 135 for the 34/7, 120/month, 1200/year.)
Basically it's the same as the 121 duty time regs, except that your flight time limits are 1200hrs a year/120 hrs a month/34 hrs in 7 days. You can only fly 8 hours without a rest period and you have to have a 24 hour rest period somewhere in a 7 calendar day period.
Your normal rest period is determined by how many hours you are scheduled to fly in a 24 hour period.
In a 24 hour period if you are scheduled for
< 8 hours of flying your normal rest period is 9 hours
8 - 9 hours of flying your normal rest period is 10 hours
> 9 hours of flying your normal rest period is 11 hours
You have to look in a given 24 hours and find the required rest in that 24 hour period.
Those rest periods are reduceable to 8, 9 or 10 hours, as long as they are compensated with a 10, 11 or 12 hour rest period that starts no later than 24 hours after the start of the reduced rest period.
It doesn't specifically state it in the FARs, but because of the 8 hours minimum rest, it is implied you can be on duty for a max of 16 hours.
the 24 hours scheduled off doesn't mean a day off - I've worked 22 days straight at one point - the company gave me exactly 24 hours off - dutied off at noon and had to duty on at noon the next day.
You can still fly more than 34/7, 120/month, 1200/hrs a year though. or 8 without a rest period, by having the phrase "This flight is operated under Part 91." added onto your dispatch release. then at that point no duty time/flight time limits apply. Then the next time, you are assigned a flight under "Part 121 operated under Part 135 duty time limits" then the rules apply again within the 24 hour period (the time you flew under Part 91 then counts under Part 135 for the 34/7, 120/month, 1200/year.)
Got a legal interpretation for that? AFAIK, the 34/7, 120/mo and 1200/year is all commercial flying just like the 500/800/1400 for on demand ops. That includes part 91 commercial flying, such as empty repositioning legs for an air carrier, part 91 flying while being compensated (think corporate), flight instruction, banner towing, jumpers, etc. I'd be interested to read any interpretation from the chief legal counsel (not a FSDO...they don't have that authority) saying that the Part 91 flights do not count. That could be very, very important for me in the (hopefully) near future, so I'd like to see the interpretation.
--Break--
To expand on what I said earlier for the OP...
The flight time limits can be over-flown under the on demand regs, provided it was due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder. Of course, that being the case you will receive compensatory rest.
Note that there is nowhere in the regulations does it allow for you to be at a point where you can look back 24 hours and not see 10 consecutive hours of rest.
Now, if you do either, it had better be due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder. Let's examine that one a little closer.
"circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder"
What that means:
- ATC delay once out of the blocks adding to your flight time.
- Weather deviations adding to your flight time.
- Holding, flow, spacing issues adding to your flight time.
- Any of these factors causing you to land and duty-off at a point in time when you look back and can no longer see 10 hours of consecutive rest in a 24 hour period.
- Pax show up 4 hours late and you know if you leave now you will go over your "duty limits".
- Pax show up 4 hours late and you know that because of the storm that moved through, you will be routed from BCT over MSY to try to get up to PIT, taking you over your flight time limits. This is not a reroute once in the air...this is either your clearance before you left the blocks or what you flight planned. Either way, you're done.
- Freight shows up 45 minutes late and ATC gives you an EDCT time, gate hold, etc. Under a gate hold, you probably won't be given a taxi...if you are, then you have left the blocks and you have already started the flight. Same with an EDCT. If you have left the blocks, you have started your flight. Once you start your flight legally (you know if you leave now that when you land you'll still be legal), you are legal to finish it.
- That is where the "legal to start, legal to finish" comes in. It does not mean that if you are scheduled ABC-DEF (2.0 flight) at 0100 (after a 0000 show) and return DEF-ACB (2.0 flight) with a scheduled arrival at 1330 (with a 30 minute post flight) that you are legal to finish the DEF-ABC leg if your pax show up at 1245. At that point, you would not be legal to finish the flight if you started it.
- Starting the engine(s) and taxiing are not circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder. You can control pressing the start button. You can't control getting a hold or being stuck in the pad for 3 hours when you expected to just get straight out. Now, if you try to be clever and beat the system and taxi out...when you return to the ramp for more fuel, you've just blocked back in. You need to call a new crew.
It's better to be fired without the violation than fired and violated. I'd rather explain being let go because I refused to stay on duty for 20 hours than explain why I was violated for being on duty for 20 hours...
Best of luck!
-mini
Nightflight
New Member
I like most of the stuff in your post except this. If you are talking about scheduled 135 ops, you can not be scheduled for more than 8 hours as you said early. Thus you only need 9 hours of rest, or 8 hours if you are reduced rest, but if they only gave you 8, you would need 10 hours off during your next "rest period".
Again I would like to say that is for scheduled ops you can not be scheduled for more than 8 hours. However lets say I am scheduled for 8, but fly 12 because of weather, I still only need 9 hours of rest(or 8 if they want to reduce rest me).
I hope thats kind of clear.
What you said applies to unscheduled ops i.e some random charter wants you for 11 hours of flight time or something crazy.
Again, I've never worked 135 scheduled or on-demand in my life. I worked for a scheduled 121 passenger carrier that had an opspecs authorization to use Part 135 flight time/duty time limits. Whether that has any bearing or not - maybe/maybe not. I know of two 121 carriers left that might probably have a 135 authorization.
You can be scheduled to fly more than 8 hours in a 24 hour period. The caveat is that you have a rest period somewhere in that 24 hour period.
An example is:
Duty on at 1200 noon. Fly 2 legs for 6 flight hours, duty off at 2000. Rest from 2000 until 0600. 10 hours of rest (reduced rest). Duty on at 0600. Fly 2 more legs for 4 flight hours, duty off at 1200 noon. 24 hour period - 10 hours of scheduled flying, 10 hours of rest.
The whole thing about <8 flight hours, 8-9 hours, >9 hours comes straight from 135.265.
I'll have to get back to you, I don't have time to elaborate right now. This was the interpretation we operated under at my company, from our POI and the union. So no I don't have any legal interpretation or legal counsel. Again it's a 121 company using 135 FTDT rules. We'd have guys time out in October and November with 1200 hours for the year, they'd be crew scheduling's latest pilot toy thing for Part 91 repos and mx test flights until Jan 1.
The Part 91 flying done prior to any end of period like during the duty day, 7 day period, month, or year - that Part 91 flying does count towards the flight time limit. But once you timed out for the duty period, week, month, or year. You could operate any Part 91 flight the company wanted, you just couldn't operate under 121 again until you had the required rest period and/or had future flying removed from your schedule to get back under the flight time limit.
I reread my original post, and I see where I wasn't very clear. I was not saying that Part 91 flying doesn't count towards your 135 limits, there is a very specific instance that it doesn't.
Again, I find it interesting that the airline really discourages Part 91 flying on your time (like flight instructing), but then when it comes to Part 91 flying on company time, it sees no problem in tacking it on at the end of the duty day. It's being two-faced.
What I should have said is that say at the end of your day, after you've flown your 7 hours in the 10 hours duty day, the company all of a sudden needs a crew to ferry a plane somewhere (2 hours of flying and 4 more duty hours), you might get junior manned for it and fly the flight under Part 91. That's when the extra 2 hours of flying Part 91 flying doesn't count against the no more than 8 hours without a rest period. However it still counts towards the 34/7, the 120/month, 1200/year, and you'll need the compensatory rest after you're finally all done with the day and you'll need to be removed from the scheduled future flying that puts you over 34/7 and 120/month.
The first time it happened to me, I called the chief pilot, who told me it was legal and to go fly the flight. called the union, who said it was okay. So no help there. The last thing I did was speed-dial our POI and said this is what's going on and asked his thoughts about it. He didn't see what the company was doing wrong. Well shoot - The FAA didn't help at all there either. In the end I said "uncle" and told scheduling I was fatigued and i wasn't flying the flight (which is what I should have done first before doing all the calling.)
Then you talk to the other guys, and you hear the same stories, flying 12 hours in a duty period Part 91-ing all over the place. And the Part 91 flying at the end of the year when they've timed out for the year.
About the only thing everyone agreed on was you couldn't go over 16 hours of duty time it seems and they pushed you all the way to that a lot of times when they had to.
Anyways, I didn't mean to derail the thread from the original question.
Raja. That's consistent with everything I've read. Thanks for clearing it up. I was hoping there was a different interpretation, but oh well...what can ya do?
-mini
SpiraMirabilis
Possible Subversive
I'm not sure a repo or ferry flight in furtherance of a 135 operation would be considered pt 91 though.
crazyjaydawg
Well-Known Member
Although I wish I could agree with that, the fact is no paying PAX or Cargo -> Part 91
The way it's done at your average pt135 on-demand cargo op is the company bids a trip for $XX, the number of hours is never specified. This allows them to call any empty leg (except positioning to pick up the cargo initially) a pt91 leg even though it is still being paid for by the customer (the company will bid according to their hourly costs for round trip, but there is no specific hourly billing so they can account for it however they want).
They cannot require you to fly any of the 91 legs above and beyond your 10 hours (2 crew) or 14 hour duty day, it is totally at your discretion* . All of the talk about being on call = being on duty is completely ignored in the on-demand auto parts world... always has been and probably always will be. You are on call 24/7... they will make sure you can always show 10 hours of rest since your last trip, but when you're sitting at home waiting on dispatch to call you, you're on "rest". That's just the way the industry works.
*of course if you won't do it, someone else will and would love your job... thanks for the great regs, FAA
They cannot require you to fly any of the 91 legs above and beyond your 10 hours (2 crew) or 14 hour duty day, it is totally at your discretion* . All of the talk about being on call = being on duty is completely ignored in the on-demand auto parts world... always has been and probably always will be. You are on call 24/7... they will make sure you can always show 10 hours of rest since your last trip, but when you're sitting at home waiting on dispatch to call you, you're on "rest". That's just the way the industry works.
*of course if you won't do it, someone else will and would love your job... thanks for the great regs, FAA
KLB
Well-Known Member
It was a bit different when my company did charters. They sort of sat you hot reserve for 12hrs a day and had a morning shift and a evening shift. Away from base, you sat at the airport til you didn't have enough duty time to do a trip. They usually didn't make you sit more than 12hrs though. Then it's bar time!
Only time they consider 91 flying not towards duty time if it was an empty repo back to base. Even then if you don't have the duty time to do it, you had to get permission from the CP. It would be really fun to call him 4am in the morning to get a release back to base part 91.
It was a bit different when my company did charters. They sort of sat you hot reserve for 12hrs a day and had a morning shift and a evening shift. Away from base, you sat at the airport til you didn't have enough duty time to do a trip. They usually didn't make you sit more than 12hrs though. Then it's bar time!
Only time they consider 91 flying not towards duty time if it was an empty repo back to base. Even then if you don't have the duty time to do it, you had to get permission from the CP. It would be really fun to call him 4am in the morning to get a release back to base part 91.
Sounds like a decent 135 company, I guess they exist after all
Joepilot84
Foxtrot Tango Whiskey
I hate to dig up an old thread, but... get your shovels, because I find this relevant. Part 91 flying is not considered exempt from the flight & duty rules when you're getting paid for it. It may not be 135 or 121 flying, but it is considered "commercial flying" according to the FAA's legal counsel. The one exception to this being the return empty leg, in which the FAA legal counsel interpretation states
"Repositioning flights are governed by Part 91. The rule, however, applies to flight time limitations not duty time limitations. The rule with respect to flight time limitations is that any “other commercial flying” (e.g., flights conducted under Part 91) must be counted towards the daily flight time limitations of Part 135 if such flying precedes the flight conducted under Part 135. Such would be the case of the first leg of flight in your second scenario. In contrast, if the Part 91 flight occurs after the Part 135 flying, as would be the case in the last leg of your second scenario, the Part 91 flight is not counted against the daily flight time limitations of Part 135."
as found here http://www.nata.aero/data/files/gia/dutyandrest/hutson1992interp.pdf
All flights occurring prior to the active 135 leg count.
Here are some other interesting links pertaining to 135 flight and duty regulations. Such as the 24/7 on call myth, and retroactive days off, etc.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...3/masterson - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2014/ewing - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/mayors - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
And here's what ALPA has to say...
https://far117understanding.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/ftdt_guide_6-a_june04.pdf
The most important thing to remember is even if its legal in a gray sort of way, if anything happens they'll slap your ass with a 91.13 with the quickness, and good luck beating it.
"Repositioning flights are governed by Part 91. The rule, however, applies to flight time limitations not duty time limitations. The rule with respect to flight time limitations is that any “other commercial flying” (e.g., flights conducted under Part 91) must be counted towards the daily flight time limitations of Part 135 if such flying precedes the flight conducted under Part 135. Such would be the case of the first leg of flight in your second scenario. In contrast, if the Part 91 flight occurs after the Part 135 flying, as would be the case in the last leg of your second scenario, the Part 91 flight is not counted against the daily flight time limitations of Part 135."
as found here http://www.nata.aero/data/files/gia/dutyandrest/hutson1992interp.pdf
All flights occurring prior to the active 135 leg count.
Here are some other interesting links pertaining to 135 flight and duty regulations. Such as the 24/7 on call myth, and retroactive days off, etc.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...3/masterson - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2014/ewing - (2014) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...2009/mayors - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf
And here's what ALPA has to say...
https://far117understanding.files.wordpress.com/2012/12/ftdt_guide_6-a_june04.pdf
The most important thing to remember is even if its legal in a gray sort of way, if anything happens they'll slap your ass with a 91.13 with the quickness, and good luck beating it.