Paid from duty time

[DPApilot]

Anything over 71.5 hours credit is considered overtime and paid as such. Fly a lot in the beginning of the month (on days off, already at 150%) and pick up a few with some long (5 hour) sits, stand up overnights, exct, and there you have it!

 

[O&M]

Ok, fair enough. That's as good a reason as any.

To me, it just seems really, really complicated. I don't know how the pilots or company's payroll department can keep it all straight. That's why I like my company's duty hour system, because it's so simple to keep track of.

But I've never worked under any other system, so maybe it's easier than it sounds.

It is complicated, but not necessarily so. What complicates matters are things like block or better, greater of scheduled vs. actual, trip rigs, duty rigs, minimum day, cancellation pay, etc. These are all union demands, not management choices. And these demands came about with the advent of jet travel. Calculating pilot pay was a relatively simple matter when pilots spend all day droning along in a DC-3. But when speeds doubled with turboprops, and doubled again with jets, pilots began spending a lot more time on the ground. From their viewpoint, it wasn't enough to get paid to fly; they wanted to get paid to wait too.

 

[ppragman]

In a perfect world I'd get a daily rate, plus flight hours. So far that's been my favorite pay scheme.

 

[Ralgha]

It is complicated, but not necessarily so. What complicates matters are things like block or better, greater of scheduled vs. actual, trip rigs, duty rigs, minimum day, cancellation pay, etc. These are all union demands, not management choices. And these demands came about with the advent of jet travel. Calculating pilot pay was a relatively simple matter when pilots spend all day droning along in a DC-3. But when speeds doubled with turboprops, and doubled again with jets, pilots began spending a lot more time on the ground. From their viewpoint, it wasn't enough to get paid to fly; they wanted to get paid to wait too.

We should get paid to wait. I have to be at work whether I'm actually flying or not. If I'm delayed by 5 hours, I don't get any extra pay beyond what I would have gotten being on time.

Changing to being paid by duty time would be the single best advancement in crew pay (excluding straight raises) since this jacked up industry began. There are always exceptions, don't even bother with them.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

 

[eightballfreight]

Ameriflight pays by units, 8 units a day. I'm convinced it is so they don't have have to pay us over time.
It sounds amazing, but at the end of the five or six day work week of being away 14-16 hours each day, you start to feel like you desire 1.5x of something.

 

[Busta McRuffsta]

For someone not currently at a 121 carrier, could someone explain what "soft time" and "block of better" mean exactly? I think I get it but want to be sure. Thanks.

 

[SlumTodd_Millionaire]

For someone not currently at a 121 carrier, could someone explain what "soft time" and "block of better" mean exactly? I think I get it but want to be sure. Thanks.

"Soft time" is getting paid 10 hours to do 5 hours of flying. That would be 5 hours of block time or "hard time," and 5 hours of soft time. "Block or better" means that you get paid the higher of originally scheduled block time or actual block time. So if the flight takes longer than scheduled, you get paid the extra, but if it takes less than scheduled, you still get paid the scheduled time.

 

[Busta McRuffsta]

"Soft time" is getting paid 10 hours to do 5 hours of flying. That would be 5 hours of block time or "hard time," and 5 hours of soft time. "Block or better" means that you get paid the higher of originally scheduled block time or actual block time. So if the flight takes longer than scheduled, you get paid the extra, but if it takes less than scheduled, you still get paid the scheduled time.

Got it. Thank you kindly.

 

[DE727UPS]

To expound a bit on soft time. There are several different rigs (soft time) in my pay scheme. There is straight time, which you are paid by the block hour. There is min monthly guarantee, where you get paid 75 hours a month no matter what. There is duty rig where you get paid an hour for each two hours on duty. There is minimum pay for duty period where you get paid four hours for any time on duty. There is trip rig where you get 6.4 hours for each 24 hours away from base. You get three hours per day if your vacation falls on a regular day off. You get four hours per day for training on days off. A reserve Captain forced to act as an F/O gets time and a half, as well as anyone called to work on days off via the junior man or junior available process.

I might have missed one or two...

Oh, this is for UPS, a pilot group with an independent, in-house, union.

Unions...they rawk....

 

[O&M]

We should get paid to wait. I have to be at work whether I'm actually flying or not. If I'm delayed by 5 hours, I don't get any extra pay beyond what I would have gotten being on time.

Changing to being paid by duty time would be the single best advancement in crew pay (excluding straight raises) since this jacked up industry began. There are always exceptions, don't even bother with them.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

If that's what you want, then negotiate for it. But expect those 3 digit hourly rates to drop significantly.

 

[Ralgha]

If that's what you want, then negotiate for it. But expect those 3 digit hourly rates to drop significantly.

That's a given. They'd be cut by 35-50% and the overall pay would be about the same. The hourly rate is irrelevant, what you take home at the end of the day is all that matters.

Management would NEVER go for it. They save a ton of money by paying us by flight time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

 

[BeRich]

That's a given. They'd be cut by 35-50% and the overall pay would be about the same. The hourly rate is irrelevant, what you take home at the end of the day is all that matters.

Management would NEVER go for it. They save a ton of money by paying us by flight time.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

If overall rate would be the same, why would it cost management any more?

 

[dasleben]

That's a given. They'd be cut by 35-50% and the overall pay would be about the same. The hourly rate is irrelevant, what you take home at the end of the day is all that matters.

True, if you're working multiple legs. At my operation, it's not uncommon to do 8 hours of flying in 9 hours of duty. I could see issues arising at carriers that have multiple different aircraft types as well, such as Delta. The domestic narrowbody guys would love the duty pay, but the long-haul guys would suffer. I think a good in-between is a system of trip and duty rigs.

Also, I would expect trip commutability to suffer with a straight duty pay system.

 

[Ralgha]

If overall rate would be the same, why would it cost management any more?

I should have specified, overall scheduled pay would be the same. Management would pay more because they wouldn't get any more free time from crews. Such as today, I finished nearly two hours late and didn't get one red cent more to compensate for it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

 

[Ralgha]

True, if you're working multiple legs. At my operation, it's not uncommon to do 8 hours of flying in 9 hours of duty. I could see issues arising at carriers that have multiple different aircraft types as well, such as Delta. The domestic narrowbody guys would love the duty pay, but the long-haul guys would suffer. I think a good in-between is a system of trip and duty rigs.

Also, I would expect trip commutability to suffer with a straight duty pay system.

The hourly rate adjustment would be applied per type, or perhaps even be divorced completely from types and depend on the type of flying, such as trans con, over seas, short shuttles, etc. Get creative, it'd take some thought but the end result would benefit the crews.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.

 

[dasleben]

The hourly rate adjustment would be applied per type, or perhaps even be divorced completely from types and depend on the type of flying, such as trans con, over seas, short shuttles, etc. Get creative, it'd take some thought but the end result would benefit the crews.

I guess my next question is, what would make the company agree to it, and what would you be giving up to get it?

 

[Ralgha]

I guess my next question is, what would make the company agree to it, and what would you be giving up to get it?

I already said management would never go for it.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus that ate your iPhone.