Owning a aircraft

nypilot88

nypilot88

New Member
hey guys I'm new to this so I have some questions....

1. With renting a tie-down, insurance, maintenance, how much am I looking at spending a year on average for a single engine aircraft. ( I know these vary big time but just a ballpark)

2. When looking for potential planes, what should I be looking for besides price?

3. I'm looking to find a single-engine piston aircraft, something to build time in. Nothing fancy and in the $10,000-$40,000 range. any suggestions?
 
nypilot88 said:
hey guys I'm new to this so I have some questions....

1. With renting a tie-down, insurance, maintenance, how much am I looking at spending a year on average for a single engine aircraft. ( I know these vary big time but just a ballpark)

2. When looking for potential planes, what should I be looking for besides price?

3. I'm looking to find a single-engine piston aircraft, something to build time in. Nothing fancy and in the $10,000-$40,000 range. any suggestions?
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I am a novice too, but I have done this research.
For the first question, tie-downs will run you from 100-200 a month at most airports...or you could get a T-Hanger for around 400 a month. Insurance varies greatly...i would count on about 1500 a year, but this the area I have done the least research on. Maintenance also goes along with your second question. Other than routine maintenance you can do yourself (oil changes, burnt out bulbs...etc) you will need an annual once a year..count on at least 1000 for that...and it can(will) go up if there are serious issues...the other major one is Engine over-haul. Airplanes are required(I believe) to have an overhaul done every so many hours. Look for time "SMOH" Since Major Over Haul...this will give you an idea on how long it will be before you have to foot the bill (usually around 40,000 for a single engine)
The third question is tougher. A cessna 150 is a good, reliable, usually cheap two-seater...but it really depends on what you want to use it for. Cross country trips in a Cesnna-150 are not very comfortable.

I'm sure others will chime in and correct much of this...again...no expert here:beer:
 
futurepilot1 said:
I am a novice too, but I have done this research.
For the first question, tie-downs will run you from 100-200 a month at most airports...or you could get a T-Hanger for around 400 a month. Insurance varies greatly...i would count on about 1500 a year, but this the area I have done the least research on. Maintenance also goes along with your second question. Other than routine maintenance you can do yourself (oil changes, burnt out bulbs...etc) you will need an annual once a year..count on at least 1000 for that...and it can(will) go up if there are serious issues...the other major one is Engine over-haul. Airplanes are required(I believe) to have an overhaul done every so many hours. Look for time "SMOH" Since Major Over Haul...this will give you an idea on how long it will be before you have to foot the bill (usually around 40,000 for a single engine)
The third question is tougher. A cessna 150 is a good, reliable, usually cheap two-seater...but it really depends on what you want to use it for. Cross country trips in a Cesnna-150 are not very comfortable.

I'm sure others will chime in and correct much of this...again...no expert here:beer:
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Is tie down that much? I remember calling a few years back and hearing $65 per month for a small single engine at a Class D airport. I know the price of stuff goes up, but I figured with hangar and tie down demand decreasing...

I know we pay like $120 a month at KPIE, but you're going to get raped at a big, TSA secured field.
 
1. I've paid between $25-100 for tie-downs. Just call out to your local airport's FBO and ask them what they charge.

2. An airplane that fits your mission demands (not to be confused with desires), avionics suitable to your needs (not wants), engine time remaining, paint and interior condition, everything else; roughly in that order. You need to start with identifying your mission. No airplane will do everything you want, but you can find one that will do what you need most of the time. If you haven't read Airplane Ownership by Ron Wanttaja, go buy it!

3. I am personally a fan of the Gumman line of products, but there are many others that make great airplanes for the right person. Off-beat brands tend to provide more value, but they can be harder to sell and sometimes harder to maintain. The price range you list will give you plenty of options of 2-seaters, and even a few 4-seaters. When you consider a make & model, try to determine what an average price is and avoid the low ball sales. For example, if you pick up a copy of Trade-a-Plane and scan the prices for a C-150, maybe the average prices will be between $20-30K (I'm just making up numbers). If you see one for sale for $12K it's probably not a bargain (unless you have the skills to work on airplanes, and maybe not even then). It sounds like you're looking for a plane to buy and fly, so you'll be better off buying one that's in the ball park of the others. That should translate into an airplane in average condition, which is probably what you're after.
 
nypilot88 said:
hey guys I'm new to this so I have some questions....

1. With renting a tie-down, insurance, maintenance, how much am I looking at spending a year on average for a single engine aircraft. ( I know these vary big time but just a ballpark)

2. When looking for potential planes, what should I be looking for besides price?

3. I'm looking to find a single-engine piston aircraft, something to build time in. Nothing fancy and in the $10,000-$40,000 range. any suggestions?
Click to expand...

How much do you have?
Seriously-
1. Varies so much from place to place. I know of one airplane owner from KY who keeps his airplane here in El Paso. A few times a year he flys in and puts some time on the airplane. The cost savings in hanger fees, taxes etc. more than pays for flying out here a few times a year.
2. Look for a well maintained airplane. I'd try to avoid one from the Gulf Coast area. You can take an airplane out of Florida but can't take Florida out of an airplane. Get a good pre-buy from a third party mechanic. The term "fresh annual" should be taken very loosely. Look for good maintenance records as well. Budget money for a new engine if it's high time.
3. If you're looking for a simple, cheap two place airplane I personally don't think you can beat a 152. Is it fast? No, but what do you care... you need the flight time anyway. I've even seen one that has an STC for an internal aux tank... something like 100 hours of fuel on board. (Okay, that's an exaggeration). When I lived in Savannah a few years ago a couple of kids passed through in 152s. They were spending the summer flying the circumference of the US building the time they needed for their CSEL.
 
Owning an airplane is like having a mistress. She takes up alot of your time and money and you have spend alot of your time hiding that fact from your wife. haha. Thats how my uncle puts it.

In all seriousness I own a cherokee 140 and a KR-2 in a joint partnership with my uncle. I dont reccomend owning an airplane unless you really want to, and you have the money to do so. If owning an airplane will make your budget hard to keep than dont. The last thing you want is for owning an airplane to put a strain on your personal life.

That being said here what your looking at to own something similar to our cherokee 140. Four place airplane with about a 115 knot cruising speed @8 gph.

Hangar Cost

My uncle bought the hangar years ago so that was included in my buy in cost when I became a partner. But at our airport for a T hangar its between 130-150 dollars a month.

Cost: $1560-$1800

Annual

The plane will need an annual every year. We do our own since my uncle has his A&P and I am working on getting mine. We pay $200 to a IA though for him to look over everything and sign off though because my uncle doesnt have his IA.

But to pay a mechanic to do one if your not a A&P your looking between $1000-$1500 depending on who you go to. The local A&P at our home airport charges a flat rate of $800 for single fixed gear but figure that something is going to be needed replaced every year due to wear and tear.

Cost: $1000-$1500

Insurance

Insurance isnt to bad. We pay around $700 a year for 28k in hull insurance on the cherokee.

Cost: $700

Gas

I fly about 100 hours a year for personal use. So figure 8 gph @ $3 (We run auto fuel) @ 100 hours your looking at $2400 for fuel a year. If you dont have the auto gas STC your talking about 8 gph @ $4.50 @100 you looking at $3600.

So to own a cherokee 140 and hangar it your looking at

Low End High End
$5660 $7600


Those numbers are representive of only our home airport though with is 3G4. I have heard of t hangars going for over 200 a month at some places and annuals costing over 2000. You really have to look around dont just take peoples word for it. And if theres anyone in your area that you can partner with do it. Cutting the fixed costs in half is really helpful. Also figure on extra money a year for upgrades and maintence. Plus this numbers didnt take into account for engine reserve should you need to ever Overhaul the engine.
 
...the other major one is Engine over-haul. Airplanes are required(I believe) to have an overhaul done every so many hours
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Wrong. For personal use you can run it over the reccomended overhaul as far as you want. If flown regularly and taken care off they can go well past the TBO time. I see one that had 2800 with compressions still in the mid 70's and flying strong.

this will give you an idea on how long it will be before you have to foot the bill (usually around 40,000 for a single engine)
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Not even in the ballpark. We had the our 0-320 out of the cherokee overhauled last year by a highly reccomended engine shop and it cost right around $16,000 and it came with a one year 200 hour warranty on it.
 
Inverted25 said:
Wrong. For personal use you can run it over the reccomended overhaul as far as you want. If flown regularly and taken care off they can go well past the TBO time. I see one that had 2800 with compressions still in the mid 70's and flying strong.



Not even in the ballpark. We had the our 0-320 out of the cherokee overhauled last year by a highly reccomended engine shop and it cost right around $16,000 and it came with a one year 200 hour warranty on it.
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Like I said..someone will correct me:o
Some of the numbers I gave were "so and so said"
 
nypilot88 said:
1. With renting a tie-down, insurance, maintenance, how much am I looking at spending a year on average for a single engine aircraft. ( I know these vary big time but just a ballpark)
Click to expand...

I missed some of your questions.

Insurance: call up Avemco (or your favorite company) and tell them you want to buy a $25K C-152 and find out how much it will cost to insure yourself.

Maintenance: go to your local airport and visit the maintenance shop. Tell them you're shopping for a plane, and you want them to do the prebuy inspection on any airplane you find, and then have them maintain it after you buy it. Ask them what you can expect to pay for an annual on a $25K C-152. (Prices vary around the country, so this is the best way to estimate how much it will cost you.) My last shop charged $650 base fee for an annual on my AA-1B. The total bill usually came to twice that amount by the time they found and fixed a handful of little things each year. In the 6 yrs I owned that plane I had it in the shop 6 times for work not connected with the annual. I budgeted four times the base price of an annual for all my maintenance and that worked for me. YMMV. Talk to your mechanic and see what he says.

To answer the question of how much a SE airplane will cost per year, you first have to determine how many hrs you will fly. The more you fly, the cheaper it is per hour (which is why partnerships are so common). Read Airplane Ownership and it will answer a lot of the basic questions on how to determine the cost of ownership. In way of warning, Ron points out in chapter 1 that owning is more expensive than renting and he'll explain why and make you a believer. There are always exceptions, but it's an aviation proverb.
 
nypilot88 said:
hey guys I'm new to this so I have some questions....

1. With renting a tie-down, insurance, maintenance, how much am I looking at spending a year on average for a single engine aircraft. ( I know these vary big time but just a ballpark)

2. When looking for potential planes, what should I be looking for besides price?

3. I'm looking to find a single-engine piston aircraft, something to build time in. Nothing fancy and in the $10,000-$40,000 range. any suggestions?
Click to expand...

Don't forget to look at homebuilts. You can build a nice airplane for less than 40K, and you will learn a TON in the process.

www.vansaircraft.com
 
homebuilts are by far the cheapest things to own and fly. Our KR-2 burns 4gph going 160 mph. Can't beat that for cross countries. And if you build it you can do all the maintence and annuals yourself saving a ton of money.
 
The overhaul on my Seneca's IO-360s were $38K...each!

Smaller engines are generally cheaper (although, not always). The Sonex's AeroVee engine is <$1000 to overhaul.
 
futurepilot1 said:
Airplanes are required(I believe) to have an overhaul done every so many hours. Look for time "SMOH" Since Major Over Haul...this will give you an idea on how long it will be before you have to foot the bill (usually around 40,000 for a single engine)
Click to expand...

Nope, the TBO is usually just a recommendation. You can run well past there, especially if the compression is good, cylinders have been replaced, etc. High time piston engines don't tend to fail catastrophically, they usually stop making power slowly.
 
Inverted25 said:
homebuilts are by far the cheapest things to own and fly. Our KR-2 burns 4gph going 160 mph. Can't beat that for cross countries. And if you build it you can do all the maintence and annuals yourself saving a ton of money.
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Not necessarily what I would recommend for a first time airplane owner in his situation. Not a bad choice, but it sounds as if he is looking for a time builder, something he can fly for a few hundred hours then sell. Also as a new airplane owner and low time pilot I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable with him doing the maintenance... he might be up for it, maybe not. No way to tell without meeting a person.
Get something that is easy for a mechanic to maintain. Something cheap. Easy to insure. Something that is well known (you'll probably be getting instruction in it). Something that is not an "orphan".
Probably why I would go with a 152. Mechanics know them. Parts are easy to get. Even the engines are (relatively), cheap to overhaul. Insurance companies know them. Can probably sell it after a few years if well maintained for close to the purchase price. If you need 4 seats, go with a 172 or Cherokee.
 
Nihon_Ni said:
Insurance: call up Avemco (or your favorite company) and tell them you want to buy a $25K C-152 and find out how much it will cost to insure yourself.
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And if you want some more advice... stop there. Avemco is a direct writer of aviation insurance policies. Aviation related insurance is pretty much all they do. Most insurance companies you call are going to be independent agents and will be a go between with you and the underwriter of your policy. What this means is it can take multiple phone calls and sometimes days of waiting to even get a quote. With Avemco being a direct writer, I would say that the vast majority of questions or problems are solved with one phone call in less than 30 minutes.

Not trying to sound like a cheerleader for Avemco, but they are who I use for my airplane and I could not be happier. If I have a question, concern, or need to make a change to my policy, I make one phone call, talk to one person and I am off the phone in less than 20 minutes.
 
USMCmech said:
Don't forget to look at homebuilts. You can build a nice airplane for less than 40K, and you will learn a TON in the process.

www.vansaircraft.com
Click to expand...
I have a question about these home-builts. Do you pretty much have to have a hanger to do something like this? I mean could you put all the sub-kits together in your garage, then take them to the tie-down spot and put them together?:dunno:
 
Nihon_Ni said:
The overhaul on my Seneca's IO-360s were $38K...each!

Smaller engines are generally cheaper (although, not always). The Sonex's AeroVee engine is <$1000 to overhaul.
Click to expand...

Any idea of what a Continental C-85 would cost to overhaul?
 
futurepilot1 said:
I have a question about these home-builts. Do you pretty much have to have a hanger to do something like this? I mean could you put all the sub-kits together in your garage, then take them to the tie-down spot and put them together?:dunno:
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Most of the build can be done in a two car garage, then you would need a T hangar to finish assembly.


After you've done all that work, you won't want to leave your baby out in the rain.
 
USMCmech said:
Don't forget to look at homebuilts. You can build a nice airplane for less than 40K, and you will learn a TON in the process.

www.vansaircraft.com
Click to expand...

Look at what his objectives are. He is looking for an airplane in which to build time, not airplane to build over time. This could be a person looking for an airplane he can fly quickly to get 250 hours, not someone who has 5-10 years available for building an airplane.
 
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